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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 06:45

If you will see what would be most popular choices for IH you will realise that charging it with anything but grots or talos is insanity.

Even basic intercessor squad can lay down lot of shots on overwatch on 4+ and fight back with 31 S4 atacks.

Charging something like repulsor is madness. Maybe Talos will survive overwatch.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 16:07

I disagree, I think people overestimate the effects of overwatch. Yeah hitting on 5s is good, but it's usually going to just degrade whatever is charging it, not take it out completely. Plus if you are super concerned about charging something like a repulsor, well we have handy little mask for that.

I do agree though marines are a lot scarier in melee due to shock assault, especially for wych cult units. That being said, if you're the one charging them it's not going to be 31 s4 attacks, a well kitted out wych squad will kill a few.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 16:10

Regarding Overwatch, how do effects that let you hit on a 5+ interact with effects that give -1 to hit?

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 16:26

Modifiers do not affect overwatch. Iron Hands have a set unmodified 5 or 6 to hit.

And a stratagem for 4, 5, or 6.


Last edited by Myrvn on Wed Sep 18 2019, 16:27; edited 1 time in total
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 16:26

Accidental double post
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 16:35

@Myrvn wrote:
Modifiers do not affect overwatch.

Could you point me to where it says that in the rulebook?

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 17:12

@Myrvn wrote:
Modifiers do not affect overwatch. Iron Hands have a set unmodified 5 or 6 to hit.

And a stratagem for 4, 5, or 6.

A strat to overwatch on 4s, didn't realize they had that. Boy that sucks, vexator mask haemonculus is going to be a must have vs IH.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 17:56

Charge subsection #3 in the core rules.

uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

Iron Hands chapter tactic specifically states a 5 or a 6. It doesn't say a 5+.

And the FAQs have some language about modifiers as well. Otherwise you would never be able to overwatch anything with a -1.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 18:26

My iron hands list will have intercessors with auto bolt rifles (10 bodies with Assault 3), Redemptor Dread (18 S5 AP-2), Agressors (horse load of S4 dakka, 54 i think), Repulsor and some other stuff.

Basically its either charge it with boats or charge it with covens. Everything else will go puff. Oh and repulsor can fly away and gives -2 to charge roll. And warlord can walk away from combat at a whim.

Its really not a smartest of ideas to assault IH, its a gift to them. Best bet is dissies.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 19:33

@Myrvn wrote:
Charge subsection #3 in the core rules.

uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

Iron Hands chapter tactic specifically states a 5 or a 6. It doesn't say a 5+.

And the FAQs have some language about modifiers as well. Otherwise you would never be able to overwatch anything with a -1.

So they ignore negative modifiers but not positive ones. Awsome.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 19:47

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Myrvn wrote:
Charge subsection #3 in the core rules.

uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

Iron Hands chapter tactic specifically states a 5 or a 6. It doesn't say a 5+.

And the FAQs have some language about modifiers as well. Otherwise you would never be able to overwatch anything with a -1.

So they ignore negative modifiers but not positive ones. Awsome.

They ignore both. +1 to hit won't change that they're hitting on 5s during Overwatch.
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 19:48

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Myrvn wrote:
Charge subsection #3 in the core rules.

uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

Iron Hands chapter tactic specifically states a 5 or a 6. It doesn't say a 5+.

And the FAQs have some language about modifiers as well. Otherwise you would never be able to overwatch anything with a -1.

So they ignore negative modifiers but not positive ones. Awsome.

you cant modify overwatch up or downwards
the 5+ is fix, unless the stratagem says "...this unit can fire overwatch and a 4,5 or 6 is required..."
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 19:48

They do not benefit from positive modifiers either.

In this case it is a specific rule and stratagem. But you can't use the +1 to hit spell or the 2+ BS spell either.

The stratagem says hits on a 4, 5, or 6.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 19:54

Sorry but for all intents and purposes hitting on a 5+ in overwatch is getting +1 to hit.

Yes, the game mechanics treat it differently because Overwatch is (and always has been) a quagmire of horrible game-design. But it amounts to exactly the same thing.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 20:32

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Sorry but for all intents and purposes hitting on a 5+ in overwatch is getting +1 to hit.

Yes, the game mechanics treat it differently because Overwatch is (and always has been) a quagmire of horrible game-design. But it amounts to exactly the same thing.

no, because if you shoot for example a plasma gun with a +1 to hit, you cannot kill yourself with gets hot
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 21:04

The +1 to hit on Hellblasters is amazing.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 21:22

Talking to a couple highly competitive SM players, they still dont like Hellblasters and feel they still are not worth it compare to other units.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 23:26

@Myrvn wrote:
The +1 to hit on Hellblasters is amazing.

I actually want my hellblasters to die so thry can shoot again with the standard and then get revived by an apothecary
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2019, 23:48

Too many points of failure now :-( and I'll probably lose at least one in the enemy turn, so the apothecary is already doing its job.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 19 2019, 03:10

@Azdrubael wrote:
If you will see what would be most popular choices for IH you will realise that charging it with anything but grots or talos is insanity.

Even basic intercessor squad can lay down lot of shots on overwatch on 4+ and fight back with 31 S4 atacks.

Charging something like repulsor is madness. Maybe Talos will survive overwatch.

I was thinking more like Reavers charging vehicles to force them to fall back in the opponent's turn, but agreed on Wyches charging to their deaths. Just a shame to see the answer to this is even more dark light weapons.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 19 2019, 03:11

double post, please delete.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 19 2019, 08:39

Quote :
but agreed on Wyches charging to their deaths. Just a shame to see the answer to this is even more dark light weapons.

Well if boats will soak overwatch wyches are doable. Boats with full HP have capacity to bully through infantry overwatch.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 19 2019, 11:01

Also... could just shooting them, they are still just marines after all. Charge the non 4+ to hit OW units. Remember they will get re-rolls too, so 4+ OW is insanely good on marines. Shoot them dead!

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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 19 2019, 19:40

Is the Iron Father the linchpin of the army? You cannot tell me that Dark Eldar and especially Harlequins don't have the tools to take him out
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 19 2019, 20:12

Well, he is tough, T5 7W 2+ 5++, 6+++, but your normal sniper or targeted psychic power can get him. Maybe Flyer if he is in bad spot.

Thing is, Drukhari aint that good in sniper/assassin department. Certainly not Vindicare good. Maybe Solitaire with Rose can, or Shadowseer.

But thruthfully, the only thing that can remove him for sure is Dark Creed Tantalus. Or just kill everything around him and then shoot him with darklight

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