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 Iron Hands oh my god...

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DevilDoll
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DevilDoll

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 30, 2019 1:28 pm

lol i just watched that travesty of a game... just wow
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 30, 2019 7:44 pm

You know.... hearing this actually kinda makes me glad that we don't have a few high damage weapons that we absolutely have to rely on to kill high priority targets (I know I know blasters and Darklances but how many of us use those over Dissintegrator cannons as our primary high damage output?) ... , and instead have a thousand weapons that only do a couple damage each ... dealing with these with a thousand cuts sounds far better then trying to blast one massive hole into them ... especially that damage reduction strat ... isnt really worth it if yer cutting 2 down to 1 as opposed to 4 to 2 or 5-6 to 3, and as stated earlier I think consentrated Haywore is definitely going to be the best way to deal with these vehicles
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Elfric
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Elfric

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 30, 2019 8:12 pm

So when the meta is flooded with IH players what happens in a all iH final. God they are gonna get stale quick
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 30, 2019 8:55 pm

I always play with Skyweavers, so i wont care. It might be easier actually.

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Burnage
Hekatrix
Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 30, 2019 9:10 pm

@amishprn86 wrote:
I always play with Skyweavers, so i wont care. It might be easier actually.

Honestly if Iron Hands shreds the Aeldari fliers list hard, competitive Eldar might be reduced to 9 Talos and 18 Skyweavers.
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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 30, 2019 9:11 pm

@Burnage wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
I always play with Skyweavers, so i wont care. It might be easier actually.

Honestly if Iron Hands shreds the Aeldari fliers list hard, competitive Eldar might be reduced to 9 Talos and 18 Skyweavers.

Nah, just 12 Skyweavers, need a battalion still to make each 2x6 a 3++ and give one of them additional -1 to be hit.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 30, 2019 9:31 pm

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
I always play with Skyweavers, so i wont care. It might be easier actually.

Honestly if Iron Hands shreds the Aeldari fliers list hard, competitive Eldar might be reduced to 9 Talos and 18 Skyweavers.

Nah, just 12 Skyweavers, need a battalion still to make each 2x6 a 3++ and give one of them additional -1 to be hit.

Makes sense, I keep forgetting Harlies can use Prismatic Blur twice a turn. Maybe something like -

Spoiler:
 

That lands at 1983 points and is possibly the most survivable Aeldari list against an Iron Hands castle?
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False Son
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False Son

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 01, 2019 2:43 am

@Red Corsair wrote:

The thing I have been finding the most overlooked is the impulser. Which to be fair makes sense with no kit available ATM. I have been proxying it and that thing is the best transport in the game. 93pts for an 11 wound 14" moving t7 vehicle with a 4++ fly and -2 to be charged. Oh and dudes can get out just over 3" after it has moved 14+d6" then move themselves a further 6" and either advance another d6" or shoot lol. Best mobility and durability in the game and transporting 17 pt intercessors with 3 attacks each 1st round is idiotic. The sargent has 4 swings with a thunderhammer lol. Sure on paper it says transport capacity 6, but primaris hit and take hits like 2 guys so it really catches folks off guard. Couple that with 130 pt ninja walkers and you can start to see how crazy marines are.

97 points.  

The transported unit cannot charge, and can only disembark if the Impulsor did not advance.  The rest seems legit.  Moving 14, disembarking, moving and advancing, all possible.

It gets overlooked because there isn't much value to it as a transport.  Intercessors, Incursors, Infiltrators and Hellblaster can all inflict damage on turn 1.  Reivers can't charge out of it using Assault Vehicle.  It can't carry Gravis armored Primaris.  The one option that seems great is the Bellicatus Missile Array, which gets 3 types of missiles, and costs 17 points.
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Cerve
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Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 01, 2019 10:12 am

Honestly for us, I don't see them as a major problem if you play GW system. In ITC I guess will be way worse but I don't know about it.
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Gorgon
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Gorgon

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 01, 2019 11:34 pm

@False Son wrote:
@Red Corsair wrote:

The thing I have been finding the most overlooked is the impulser. Which to be fair makes sense with no kit available ATM. I have been proxying it and that thing is the best transport in the game. 93pts for an 11 wound 14" moving t7 vehicle with a 4++ fly and -2 to be charged. Oh and dudes can get out just over 3" after it has moved 14+d6" then move themselves a further 6" and either advance another d6" or shoot lol. Best mobility and durability in the game and transporting 17 pt intercessors with 3 attacks each 1st round is idiotic. The sargent has 4 swings with a thunderhammer lol. Sure on paper it says transport capacity 6, but primaris hit and take hits like 2 guys so it really catches folks off guard. Couple that with 130 pt ninja walkers and you can start to see how crazy marines are.

97 points.  

The transported unit cannot charge, and can only disembark if the Impulsor did not advance.  The rest seems legit.  Moving 14, disembarking, moving and advancing, all possible.

It gets overlooked because there isn't much value to it as a transport.  Intercessors, Incursors, Infiltrators and Hellblaster can all inflict damage on turn 1.  Reivers can't charge out of it using Assault Vehicle.  It can't carry Gravis armored Primaris.  The one option that seems great is the Bellicatus Missile Array, which gets 3 types of missiles, and costs 17 points.

I've been proxying them too for my white scars. Running 3 of them with the missile launcher, 3x5 assault bolter intercessors with the khan and a libby. It's so mobile it's unreal. I can jet up with bikes in front, move up the impulsors, disembark the intercessors to screen, get the characters out for auras and powers on the bikes. Next turn I can just collapse that entire formation and move 20" away. It handles similar to raiders but different because the infantry is out and can pose a threat; shoot infantry or transport, not both. Super fun though.

Sent from Topic'it App
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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 02, 2019 1:07 am

They are not being over looked from what i can tell, i even started to think about picking up marines again just b.c of that and the new Scout dread.

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False Son
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False Son

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 02, 2019 3:03 am

Can't blame you on the Invictor. Especially an Iron Hands one pumping out all those anti horde shots with Calculated Fury.

I'm still waiting for a silver lining on Iron Hands. It would seem any problems they would have would be mostly self inflicted by trying to make the most of their vehicle and Heavy weapon synergies. Maybe this is the start of a general era of more powerful codexes, but we will see.
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Elfric
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Elfric

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 04, 2019 7:16 pm

I played against Iron Hands last night, I took 2 Archons, 3 squads of Kabalites, a squad of Haywire scourge, 1 venom, 2 Haemonculus, 3 squads of wracks and 5 Talos. I also took 6 Skyweaver bikes, 2 Voidweavers, Shadowseer, Solitaire, 1 unit of 4 clowns with fusion pistols and Deathjester. I made the deathjester the warlord and gave him curtain fall.

In my first turn I killed Feiros with the Death Jester , the Solitaire killed his bike smash captain warlord and got the Leviathan down to half strength. In fact his IH Leviathan took 14 wounds over two rounds but being IH, it didn't die. Yes IH are durable but it's the stupid amount of firepower and re roll everything that's stupid. I lost, the army is busted but I don't know how you fix it without nerfing Marines in general. Really badly written codex
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 04, 2019 10:00 pm

How on earth did you kill feiros with the death jester..?
I mean I cannot possibly see that happening other than you getting godly rolls while your opponent failing every single one of them..
Can you explain please..?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 04, 2019 10:39 pm

Yeah IDK how either, even with the 2 stratagems (+1 hit 6's are +2 hits, and +1 str/D3 damage instead of 1) with a 2+ save, means he saves 50% of them, and you still dont wound on 2+, hitting 3 shots on 2+ that makes 3 more hits on average, so 6 hits, 3 wouds, 1.5 saves, meaning its 2-3 damage on average, even if you got 2 wounds in, 2d3 average is 4, thats still 3 more wounds. That means you need 2 lucky above average rolls or he needs below average rolls (all 3D3's is still only 6 damage) so you still need 1 lucky roll.

Its doable for sure, but unlikely.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 04, 2019 11:24 pm

I feel like the important take home message from Elfric's post is that despite getting incredibly lucky and one-shotting the Iron Father through all of his defensive bullshit, the game was still a loss for the Aeldari.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 12:24 am

@Burnage wrote:
I feel like the important take home message from Elfric's post is that despite getting incredibly lucky and one-shotting the Iron Father through all of his defensive bullshit, the game was still a loss for the Aeldari.

I dont think so. i have a strong feeling we are very good at them, just not at killing them you can have 30+ units in DE easily, 3-7 wound units are cheap and plentiful. So what if they do 12 damage per gun and get to shoot 4 of them, they will be wasting 6 damage every shot. Kill everything but the stupid 2-3 vehicles.

And as for Aeldari, take more quins, 2x6 Skyweavers wit a 3++, -1/-2 to hit, can DS 1 of them and just kill it turn 2, a 4++/5+++ only goes so far.

Also, Doom/Jinx/Guide still works great, massive shooting 1D weapons with that will kill it easily. We just havent found the best combo to kill it within an army to fight them just yet.

I have a feeling, 7 ish venoms + kabals shooting up killing everything else, with the right 1-2-3 combo from CWE/Quins to handle the Dread/Thunderfire/WW will work out well. but DSing might be a must..

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 2:23 am

@amishprn86 wrote:
Kill everything but the stupid 2-3 vehicles.

This was my thought, as well. Kill the troops and overtake the objectives using Vanguard of the Dark City. Even if you have to fight off IH troops, ownership is determined by number of models. A rare win against Primaris.

Also, if you can find a way to put wounds on a IH character, you can lure out Cogitated Martyrdom to turn mutli damage attacks into mortal wounds for infantry. I am curious about that process, though. Is it

Hit.
Wound.
Save.
Damage Roll.
Ignore wound roll for target (character).
Roll mortal wound transfer.
Ignore wound roll for infantry unit suffering the mortal wounds.

I hope they are not double dipping for ignoring wounds.
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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 8:04 am

I made the Deathjester the warlord and gave him the luck of the laughing God trait, which re-rolls hit rolls, wound rolls and damage rolls of 1. I then gave said DJ curtainfall. I then used Shrieking Doom and example made and one shotted Feiros. There was a bit of luck but I got 7 shots off and he failed a ton of saves and then I inflicted something like 13 wounds. However his army still did well without the Iron Father. But Amish is right, Deldar and Harlequins are good against this army. I probably should have focused on killing his troops because after killing tge iron father, tge warlord and dropping the Leviathan down to 7 wounds I got a bit greedy and became obsessed with trying to kill the Leviathan which contributed to my loss.

I think tge codex is busted BUT Drukhari and Harlequins do much better than most other armies against them. Some of you need to play IH, it's not their durability that's a problem for us it's the re rolls for everything. But they're slow. I also think Amish is right about venom spam would be quite effective in this match up. Warriors with shredders/splinter cannons killing the troops. Our D6 damage weapons might as well be D3 damage weapons. Blobs of wyches wrapping the walkers would be effective
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Karr4x
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 8:44 am

@Elfric wrote:
I made the Deathjester the warlord and gave him the luck of the laughing God trait, which re-rolls hit rolls, wound rolls and damage rolls of 1. I then gave said DJ curtainfall. I then used Shrieking Doom and example made and one shotted Feiros. There was a bit of luck but I got 7 shots off and he failed a ton of saves and then I inflicted something like 13 wounds.

Wait, I don't understand what you did with your DeathJester.
If you used Shrieking Doom (that thing only affects the Shrieker Profile) and Example Made you could have only possibly passed 3 hits (that is with Example Made and with a roll of 6 to hit, scoring 3 hits instead of one). And with those 3 shots, if all were to wound and go through the enemy's saves etc ... you would then only be able to inflict a maximum of 9 wounds with your 3D3.

I think what you did is that you wrongfully thought that the Shrieking Doom stratagem also affected the shuriken profile of Curtainfall / Shrieker Cannon, but that's not the case.
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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 9:11 am

Oh dear you're right it is Shrieker profile only :/ my bad I better message my friend and apologise haha
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 11:18 am

Yeah 2 hits isnt very good, i missed that too, but i normally dont use that stratagem. My DJ's are almost never in range of anything, or are hiding and sitting on objectives, they are the best way to hold down an objectives unless they have good snipers.................. Like marines do now......


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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 10:06 pm

I'm not following the rerolls for everything comments about Iron Hands. They have the same rerolls as every other marine. Did I miss something?

They get bonuses to overwatch. But that isn't a reroll.

LT and Chapter Masters are available to everyone.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 10:33 pm

@Myrvn wrote:
I'm not following the rerolls for everything comments about Iron Hands. They have the same rerolls as every other marine. Did I miss something?

They get bonuses to overwatch. But that isn't a reroll.

LT and Chapter Masters are available to everyone.

No, IH rules are every unit gets FnP, they also degrade less, with the stratagems, relics, WL traits, you can take less damage, and etc...

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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 10:42 pm

Hmm. I wouldn't consider any of those rerolls. Ok.
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