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 Iron Hands oh my god...

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 23 2019, 20:07

The leviathan is just insane, there's no good way to kill it and its durability is just over the top with IH rules. Best hope of dealing with it is tying it in melee, use a transport or talos to soak up the overwatch then throw something like wyches in to surround it. Of course easier said than done, your units need to survive to get there but that's your best bet when something is just so unkillable.

Skyweavers are probably the best bet for any eldar unit, but doesn't work if you don't want to take harlies.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 23 2019, 20:10

@amishprn86 wrote:
Now do it for Skyweavers, witht he Great Harlequin rr 1's to hit. Very Happy

2 or 3 max units of Skyweavers can handle it, yeah. It's just that they're considerably more efficient Haywire platforms than anything pure DE can bring.

Edit: Apparently Leviathans can't actually reach 4+++, so we're not quite in as bad a spot as my post on the last page suggested. It's still insanely durable.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 23 2019, 20:20

I'm very curious if turn 1 will turn into targeting a lot of Marines to spread out the stratagems and "waste" them. Put a couple shots into the big target to draw the durability strata, and the. Nibble at other targets. Keep some guns out of range (Marines are relatively short ranged) and then pounce on turn 3/4?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 23 2019, 20:29

Not sure, i havent seen any "good" batreps of that yet, just fanboys getting a game on youtube faster than others.

Also it will depend on if its RTT, ITC, ETC, ATC, etc.. each plays a lot more differently than the others, over here in the states ITC is king (sadly, b.c its the worst rules set out of them all), for sure they will not do as well in ITC, they still give up to many points and wont be able to Hold More. Will they win time to time? For sure they will, are the going to constantly win? No.

As for ETC, RTT, and others, they most likely will do much better especially in ETC.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 23 2019, 20:38

Goonhammer has a slightly off color analysis of killing a Leviathan that basically says don't try. Kill the rest of the army.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 23 2019, 20:40

@Myrvn wrote:
Goonhammer has a slightly off color analysis of killing a Leviathan that basically says don't try. Kill the rest of the army.

Yep, that is what a LOT of armies are going to do, Tau for example will just wreck IH b.c the rest of the army will be dead by turn 2 and they will just be running drones up to it and surrounding it all game.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 23 2019, 23:36

@Burnage it can only heal 6 wounds max
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 24 2019, 04:26

@DevilDoll wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can miss that the 5 invoun aura applies on himself... Has something changed?

No. I just forgot it applies to the person with the aura.

@Myrvn wrote:
Iron Hands can definitely use the Space Marines stratagems. Honestly, even with the buffs, no one would play a supplement without access to the main codex stratagems and relics.

Yeah, I don't understand this decision. IH have to choose between IH or standard Relics, Technomancy or standard powers, but they get access to both IH and standard SM stratagems, and both Warlord trait tables.

I just don't get why you would play standard SMs. The two choices of tactics is weak tea in comparison.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 24 2019, 04:41

They get both relics and both power sets as well...
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 24 2019, 07:25

@AzraeI wrote:
@Burnage it can only heal 6 wounds max

3 from the Iron Father, can repeat that on the same target with a strat, D3 from a Librarian's Reforge. Unless the psychic power can't be cast on a target which has already been healed?

Alternatively, the Adept of the Omnissiah warlord trait lets a techmarine heal D3+1, which would be a potential maximum of eleven wounds healed a turn.
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 24 2019, 12:53

@Burnage wrote:
@AzraeI wrote:
@Burnage it can only heal 6 wounds max

3 from the Iron Father, can repeat that on the same target with a strat, D3 from a Librarian's Reforge. Unless the psychic power can't be cast on a target which has already been healed?

Alternatively, the Adept of the Omnissiah warlord trait lets a techmarine heal D3+1, which would be a potential maximum of eleven wounds healed a turn.

hmm i overread that power, but i think its debatable if you can repair it oe additional time
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 26 2019, 04:04

@Myrvn wrote:
I'm very curious if turn 1 will turn into targeting a lot of Marines to spread out the stratagems and "waste" them.  Put a couple shots into the big target to draw the durability strata, and the. Nibble at other targets. Keep some guns out of range (Marines are relatively short ranged) and then pounce on turn 3/4?

I can see almost every Iron Hands player taking the Iron Father, given his low cost and excellent contribution to the army's durability. In doing so, they would be obliged to stay close to him. The whole army moving 5", with maybe the occasional advance will limit their ability to take objectives or venture out to attack weak spots.
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 26 2019, 15:32

@amishprn86 wrote:
Now do it for Skyweavers, witht he Great Harlequin rr 1's to hit. Very Happy

his aura is reroll 1s in the fight phase or am i missing something?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 26 2019, 19:36

@DevilDoll wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Now do it for Skyweavers, witht he Great Harlequin rr 1's to hit. Very Happy

his aura is reroll 1s in the fight phase or am i missing something?

You are right, i never take it 2cp is a bust. Was going off memory.


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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 27 2019, 10:52

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Myrvn wrote:
Goonhammer has a slightly off color analysis of killing a Leviathan that basically says don't try. Kill the rest of the army.

Yep, that is what a LOT of armies are going to do, Tau for example will just wreck IH b.c the rest of the army will be dead by turn 2 and they will just be running drones up to it and surrounding it all game.

T'au will mostly bounce off Iron Hands. The damage reduction relic, strat on dreadnoughts, and the various invuln saves that they confer reduce incoming damage down to a whimper. Then any damaged vehicle is firing top bracket again via doubling wounds for the shooting profile, the repair mechanics and a cheap +1 to hit power. They could have two or three vehicles in bottom bracket shooting at full BS again.
Don't mistake Iron Hands durability for being similar to Death Guard. They aren't a typical low damage high durability play style. They hit like a glass cannon army, but their cannon is made from iron.
If Drukhari can't find a way to reduce the incoming damage, and quickly, there won't be a drukhari army left to score points. Terrain will be more important than ever. Proper LoS blockers and magic boxes, just to give you a foothold in the game. I'm pretty disappointed with the insanity of Iron Hands. They are going to make the Castellan meta look like a kiddies play ground in comparison to what's coming.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 27 2019, 11:17

I think a lot of players are severely underestimating the new Marines, because - honestly - they really have been pretty terrible for the majority of 8th edition. It's easy to think, well, they're just Marines, what's the problem?

But the new Codex is different. They've walked straight to the top tables of major tournaments, and that was before the Iron Hands Codex hit (it hasn't even become available for most tournament play yet). If things aren't FAQed quickly the meta's going to be seriously painful.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 27 2019, 14:33

Eh, I don't think it's so doom and gloom. Marines with the exception of IH vehicles die just as quickly as they use to, the major difference is they hit back a lot harder like they should. Marines needed help, and they got it. Now it feels like a difficult matchup, instead of a weak army vs a strong one.

IH do seem a bit too good to me, but we'll see if all their stuff remains as is after a FAQ.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 27 2019, 15:42

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:

IH do seem a bit too good to me, but we'll see if all their stuff remains as is after a FAQ.

We will probably have to wait until the March FAQ though. I doubt that any last minute adjustments will be made for them in time for the September FAQ, though I suppose they could get some slight points adjustments in CA2019.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 27 2019, 17:11

After playing several Iron Hands games, I really like the new codex and it is way above the power curve of the old one. BUT, it does have weaknesses.

I suspect the next six months will be Marine dominated until other armies adapt. It is definitely a huge shift in the meta. Armies will need to deal with mass 3+ armor instead of hordes of T3.

Iron Hands will probably make some mediocre players better. But I don't think it will make mediocre players amazing.

Depending on what point adjustments Drukhari get in December, I think they'll still work out well. Our vehicles still negate most of the new Marines buffs for AP. We have decent AP of our own and Flayed Skull oh ores cover. So Eliminators and other Phobos units are really just there to give Drukhari something to munch turn 1.

The Iron Hands vehicle mob is pretty good, but I don't think it will actually win in most tournament environments. It can shoot a lot. But it doesn't hold many objectives. I think that list will be played very similar to playing against Knight players.

It should be a fun few months to see how things shake out, but I suspect Drukhari will still be top ten for books. And Iron Hands will be everywhere and above average.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 27 2019, 18:30

@krayd wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:

IH do seem a bit too good to me, but we'll see if all their stuff remains as is after a FAQ.

We will probably have to wait until the March FAQ though. I doubt that any last minute adjustments will be made for them in time for the September FAQ, though I suppose they could get some slight points adjustments in CA2019.

We can defiantly expect updates in CA 2019, that's enough time for them to factor in the new changes to marines. No need to wait until March.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 27 2019, 19:06

@yellabelly wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Myrvn wrote:
Goonhammer has a slightly off color analysis of killing a Leviathan that basically says don't try. Kill the rest of the army.

Yep, that is what a LOT of armies are going to do, Tau for example will just wreck IH b.c the rest of the army will be dead by turn 2 and they will just be running drones up to it and surrounding it all game.

T'au will mostly bounce off Iron Hands. The damage reduction relic, strat on dreadnoughts, and the various invuln saves that they confer reduce incoming damage down to a whimper. Then any damaged vehicle is firing top bracket again via doubling wounds for the shooting profile, the repair mechanics and a cheap +1 to hit power. They could have two or three vehicles in bottom bracket shooting at full BS again.
Don't mistake Iron Hands durability for being similar to Death Guard. They aren't a typical low damage high durability play style. They hit like a glass cannon army, but their cannon is made from iron.
If Drukhari can't find a way to reduce the incoming damage, and quickly, there won't be a drukhari army left to score points. Terrain will be more important than ever. Proper LoS blockers and magic boxes, just to give you a foothold in the game. I'm pretty disappointed with the insanity of Iron Hands. They are going to make the Castellan meta look like a kiddies play ground in comparison to what's coming.

I dont think tau will suffer that much, the top tau lists are versatile, killy und durable enough against knight and soup lists, even if the vehicles have 5++, tau will just high yield rocket pod through it
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Septimus
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 29 2019, 16:59

@Skulnbonz wrote:
(the +1 to hit fly unit strat helped on the raider and the people inside. Hit on 2's across the board with 3 blasters and a lance).

How does the strat affect the units inside the raider? Isn't it only the raider itself that benefits from +1 to hit vs. units with Fly?

Nvm.. I got it now "any benefits or modifiers" - nice :-)

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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 30 2019, 02:53

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Eh, I don't think it's so doom and gloom. Marines with the exception of IH vehicles die just as quickly as they use to, the major difference is they hit back a lot harder like they should. Marines needed help, and they got it. Now it feels like a difficult matchup, instead of a weak army vs a strong one.

IH do seem a bit too good to me, but we'll see if all their stuff remains as is after a FAQ.

I bought a vanguard marine/dark imperium starter army because I like the new models and I haven't even touched a supplement and I have been wrecking face. The new marines are on the level of the gladius last edition. It's actually stupid. Even non iron hands are insanely strong, all the other supplements have a fall back and shoot strat plus redeploy abilities. The phobos captain is s sniper that can have a 4 damage gun lol.

The thing I have been finding the most overlooked is the impulser. Which to be fair makes sense with no kit available ATM. I have been proxying it and that thing is the best transport in the game. 93pts for an 11 wound 14" moving t7 vehicle with a 4++ fly and -2 to be charged. Oh and dudes can get out just over 3" after it has moved 14+d6" then move themselves a further 6" and either advance another d6" or shoot lol. Best mobility and durability in the game and transporting 17 pt intercessors with 3 attacks each 1st round is idiotic. The sargent has 4 swings with a thunderhammer lol. Sure on paper it says transport capacity 6, but primaris hit and take hits like 2 guys so it really catches folks off guard. Couple that with 130 pt ninja walkers and you can start to see how crazy marines are.

Iron hands are broken, I thought smurfs were too good but they seem fine by comparison which is when you know the creep is real lol. We still haven't seen the other two supplements mind you, although there was that leaked salamander strat that can make your entire army untargetable for 2 CP lmao. Most play tested edition they said  lol!
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 30 2019, 05:25

Glasshammer Gaming has a new batrep out with Mani Cheema playing his 2nd place, undefeated LGT Eldar flyer list versus a three Repulsor Executioner Iron Hands list. Mani, who just smashed five opponents in a 400 person ITC major with his Eldar list, was essentially tabled by turn three. Even with Doom, Jinx, and eight flyers, he didn’t kill a single Executioner. The scary thing is the Iron Hands list wasn’t even optimized as strong as it could be. So, yeah, they’re every bit as ridiculously horrible as we thought.
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Calindor
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PostSubject: Re: Iron Hands oh my god...   Iron Hands oh my god... - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 30 2019, 09:41

Damn, that sounded hard. Even if i like that a 8 flier army got beaten too Wink
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