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 How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?

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How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?
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AuthorMessage
False Son
Sybarite
False Son

Posts : 260
Join date : 2012-12-23

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 09 2020, 17:38

I've switched to unmounted Kabalites exclusively these days. I used to love the Raider model. But, these days I find them a hassle to even field them, given how everyone is trying to counter this vehicle centric meta. I still really like the concept of a Raider, and appreciate the rules supporting them, like having some input in the Fight Phase beyond soaking Overwatch. It's also a co$t v benefits thing. 10 more Kabalites for the same base cost as the Raider... I could do worse.

I largely agree about our strengths regarding matchups against Tyranids. They do have some tricks that are particularly difficult for us, especially their ease in charging. Night Shields don't work against melee attacks, and passengers embarked on our transports don't get to Overwatch. Kabalites are just above garbage in the Fight Phase, so even Gaunts can cause them problems.
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WanderlightWargames
Slave
WanderlightWargames

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Location : North Carolina

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 09 2020, 21:47

@False Son wrote:
I used to love the Raider model.  But, these days I find them a hassle to even field them, given how everyone is trying to counter this vehicle centric meta.

Agreed. Raiders have been lackluster for me in 8th. For their cost, they should have more shots, room for an HQ, or some added benefit (or combination of the above). One would have to be planning to use aethersails on them, or have some other niche use, to prefer them over equal points in venoms.
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False Son
Sybarite
False Son

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 10 2020, 15:52

I miss the energy and discussion around Dark Eldar circa 6th edition. There was plenty in 5th because of the update, but 6th edition brought out conversations about tactics and citations of obscure portions of the core rules needed to win. Just go back and read one of Mushkilla's old battle reports. They are full of uses of envelopment, hounding fleeing units, going to ground and screening units. A lot of the rules supporting those tactics are gone, and there's no faulting anyone for that. In comparison, 8th ed discussion is mostly centered around list construction.

On the table Drukhari feel more like executing a plan that was manifested in the army construction. I miss the devious nature of Dark Eldar that seems largely absent in the Drukhari. Our codex is a zombie codex in comparison to our older ones, and even other current codexes. It is a powerful zombie, but a corpse none the less. I just want to feel like i'm playing 40k Dark Elves again, not Xenos Army C.
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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 10 2020, 17:46

Its funny, b.c for me, raiders are extremely strong, but thats b.c i take them as Coven with +1W +1D trait along with +1T from Haemonculus. Especially when you have them with many Talos, no one cares about Raiders till its to late, or if they target them then the Talos will just eat them up.

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WanderlightWargames
Slave
WanderlightWargames

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 10 2020, 20:45

@amishprn86 wrote:
Its funny, b.c for me, raiders are extremely strong, but thats b.c i take them as Coven with +1W +1D trait along with +1T from Haemonculus. Especially when you have them with many Talos, no one cares about Raiders till its to late, or if they target them then the Talos will just eat them up.

Raiders definitely get a big benefit per cost from Dark Technomancers, but I've had so much success with Artists of the Flesh that I've given up trying to make covens shoot well.
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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
Soulless Samurai

Posts : 1168
Join date : 2018-04-02

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 10 2020, 22:04

@False Son wrote:

On the table Drukhari feel more like executing a plan that was manifested in the army construction.  I miss the devious nature of Dark Eldar that seems largely absent in the Drukhari.  Our codex is a zombie codex in comparison to our older ones, and even other current codexes.  It is a powerful zombie, but a corpse none the less.  I just want to feel like i'm playing 40k Dark Elves again, not Xenos Army C.

This is basically where I'm at. It's not that DE are necessarily weak (though I think they have slowly slipped down the tier list since the start of 8th), it's that I just find them very uninspiring to play.

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The Strange Dark One
Wych
The Strange Dark One

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 10 2020, 22:22

@False Son wrote:
I've switched to unmounted Kabalites exclusively these days. I used to love the Raider model.  But, these days I find them a hassle to even field them, given how everyone is trying to counter this vehicle centric meta. I still really like the concept of a Raider, and appreciate the rules supporting them, like having some input in the Fight Phase beyond soaking Overwatch.  It's also a co$t v benefits thing. 10 more Kabalites for the same base cost as the Raider... I could do worse.

I've been thinking of making a Kabalite gunline with Obsidian Rose since the Codex dropped but never had enough models to make it worthwhile. How exactly are you running yours?

15" Rapid Fire range and 18" on Shredders seems pretty sweet.
Similary, two 24" Blasters and a 42" Dark Lance in a 10 man squad also seems like a good investment.

I can even see the synergy of Poisoned Tongue if you go for a Brigade.

Edit: I'm not saying this all is the most competitive build you can make, but it's certainly something I'm going to try once my new batch of Kabalites & friends are done. It seems like a fun alternatives to play.


Last edited by The Strange Dark One on Fri Apr 10 2020, 22:25; edited 2 times in total
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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 10 2020, 22:23

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@False Son wrote:

On the table Drukhari feel more like executing a plan that was manifested in the army construction.  I miss the devious nature of Dark Eldar that seems largely absent in the Drukhari.  Our codex is a zombie codex in comparison to our older ones, and even other current codexes.  It is a powerful zombie, but a corpse none the less.  I just want to feel like i'm playing 40k Dark Elves again, not Xenos Army C.

This is basically where I'm at. It's not that DE are necessarily weak (though I think they have slowly slipped down the tier list since the start of 8th), it's that I just find them very uninspiring to play.


Oh yeah 100% this.

I honestly think GW is going to move to set load outs for 1 price and mix loadouts for another price, or just a unit is X points for X amount and X guns and streamline the points/units even more so soon (the next iteration of codei/edition).

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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
Soulless Samurai

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 10 2020, 22:37

@amishprn86 wrote:
I honestly think GW is going to move to set load outs for 1 price and mix loadouts for another price, or just a unit is X points for X amount and X guns and streamline the points/units even more so soon (the next iteration of codei/edition).

On this note, I honestly think 8th edition was supposed to use only Power Levels - with point costs being a last-minute addition. It seems like GW are making 40k more and more like AoS, so (sadly) it wouldn't surprise me if points/upgrades went in that direction as well - with units having fixed sizes (so you won't be able to just add a 6th Kabalite to a unit to use up some spare points - it would have to be +5 Kabalites or nothing), and upgrades being both extremely limited and generally having 0 impact on a unit's cost. In essence, I can see them moving to Power Level for 9th, but calling it points to try and disguise the change.

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False Son
Sybarite
False Son

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Join date : 2012-12-23

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 10 2020, 23:34

@The Strange Dark One wrote:


I've been thinking of making a Kabalite gunline with Obsidian Rose since the Codex dropped but never had enough models to make it worthwhile. How exactly are you running yours?

15" Rapid Fire range and 18" on Shredders seems pretty sweet.
Similary, two 24" Blasters and a 42" Dark Lance in a 10 man squad also seems like a good investment.

I can even see the synergy of Poisoned Tongue if you go for a Brigade.

Edit: I'm not saying this all is the most competitive build you can make, but it's certainly something I'm going to try once my new batch of Kabalites & friends are done. It seems like a fun alternatives to play.

I do play them as Obsidian Rose. I use 80 Kabalites in 4 units of 20:

4x Shredders, 2 DLs
4X Shredders, 2 DLs, PGL, Blast Pistol
4x Blasters, 2 DLs
4x Blaters, 2 DLs, PGL, Blast Pistol

The idea is to use Webway Portal and Failure is Not An Option to full effect.
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Gelmir
Kabalite Warrior
Gelmir

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 15 2020, 11:43

Right now, the thing I struggle with most is list building. It feels like I can never squeeze out everything a unit has to offer, unless I go full on only one or two of our subfactions, but not all of them. But that always ends up being an unbalanced army because I miss the other subfactions. I never have the feeling the Alliance of Agony properly does what it's supposed to do. It's too much tax with too little benefit. But if I leave out Kabal, it's like bringing a knife to a gunfight. If I leave out Cults, I miss the speed. If I leave  Coven out I feel like the "oomph" just isn't there anymore.
The only solution seems to make a big mixed detachment, but we need our obsessions too much to make that work.
And then I try to replace one or two with Harlequins, but always end up short on points.
And after that it goes down hill, because after deployment it kind of feels like the game is kind of over before it even starts. Like False Son said, the game has mostly shifted to list building. And as soon as you deployed, that is done.
The result: I kind of stopped playing, and only make models for fun. My girlfriend enjoys painting them, so usually we work on the models together while watching Netflix. It gives me more pleasure than playing a game ever could.

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fisheyes
Hekatrix
fisheyes

Posts : 1200
Join date : 2016-02-18

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 15 2020, 12:45

Well, if you are having fun, then you are winning regardless of match outcomes.

While I agree that list building for DE is more difficult than most other factions (actually cant think of a more restrictive army), I feel very satisfied when it works out.

IMHO, DE was always a finesse army, with high risk/reward. I dont win many games, but when I do win, it feels just GREAT.

Back on topic, how are people feeling about our boats these days? Currently thinking of switching out some of my Ravagers over to double Raiders (with a few points drawn from elsewhere) to get the extra wounds on the table. Coven units dont seem as tough as they did back near the beginning of 8th, and I feel like I need more target saturation for those AT weapons
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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 15 2020, 14:30

IMO Raiders are one of our best units. People never used them b.c top ITC players didn't do to Raiders can give up more secondaries than Venom.

Note: Yes there are difference that can matter, like do you want over all more MSU/speed and Anti-horde, or do you want general TAC from your transports and not from your other units. AKA, if you have 2 Kabals battalions and are taking 6 units of Kabals with rifles along with Shredder scourges and Mandrakes, you don't need Venoms, but if you are taking 3 RWJF, 3 Ravagers, and Blasters on all your Kabals, then you might not need Raiders. So it is always list dependent more than anything

Defense numbers:
 

My problem with Venoms are 2 things, no AP. Even against armies with only a 5+ save, you still don't have reliable damage and if you want to have your rapid fire in range you need to be really close which they are so weak i won't want to be that close.

I've been playing a lot of 2 battalions, 1 Coven, 1 Kabal. But my coven makes up 70% my list with 2 Haemoculus, 4 Wracks, some Mandrakes, and Talos, and i'll take 6-9 Raiders (depending on how many Mandrakes/Talos i take, got to change it up each game for fun) and my Kabal has been 2 Archons, 3 Kabals x5 rifles, 3 Venoms, 2 Ravagers.

The Coven is DT and EC, EC for the Talos, DT for the Raiders. My Kabals are Flawed Skull. The Ravagers are mostly just to pull threat (I might take them out for a Spearhead of Coven with 3 Reapers, i've also been testing out Reapers before this COVID stuff).


So my 6-9 Raiders with +1 to wound and damage just murder things. Went against a SM player for one of my last games with them, had 8 and basically tabled him turn 2, turn 1 was enough damage that we couldn't kill my 6 Talos. Didn't feel bad as he was Marines. Before that i tried Venom spam vs Orks, and also Raider spam. Played 2 Ork players (We have a lot of Ork players but they only take about 90 bodies, mostly shooting) and 100% will take Raiders again.

PS: Why a small Flawed Skull? Mostly speed, to get back behind units, to take long far away objectives, and Ignore cover is a must IMO on Venoms/Kabals to actually work (we play heavy terrain boards, we have enough terrain for 12 tables but only play on 7). 19" movement is so good.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 15 2020, 23:28

To be honest I take a mix of everything. In my current list I have 4 Venoms, 3 Ravagers, 2 Reapers, & 2 Raiders. I feel like the target overload helps. Plus, the natural redundancy built into the list is nice.

The venoms with the help of DT pull dmg 2 and auto hit on 6s with MoM.
Raiders and Ravagers are threatening with the dessies.
Reapers pull heavy weight and able to with the number of shot take down the big targets.

Because the units in my list, and how they overlap, target priority for my opponent can almost never be "right." I think that is the biggest benefit of our codex.

I do lack CC, but PfP has built in CC help. Even 5 warriors charging GEQ still have a good shot when charging of doing damage with hitting on 2s and then wounding on 4s. They have been finishers for me many a times. Plus with the right traits, all of our units can be viable. I think you really need to pick HOW you want to play the army rather than trying to fit everything.

We can be super resilient, super punchy, super CC, super shoot, etc. But, I think a lot of people fail when they have no direction in their lists and then get mad and think the army sucks, but it usually their fault in the list building stage like has already been said before.
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False Son
Sybarite
False Son

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 16 2020, 19:46

@fisheyes wrote:

IMHO, DE was always a finesse army, with high risk/reward. I dont win many games, but when I do win, it feels just GREAT.

I don't anymore. I think we just beat people to death with our overabundance of Darklight weapons.
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fisheyes
Hekatrix
fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?   How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar? - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 16 2020, 20:36

Hmm, I will need to go back to my list design. Still have not moved from PoF, may need to dable in the DT/MoM/EC.

Ty for the input guys.

-Fish
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