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 Dark Eldar Competitiveness

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 04 2011, 01:40

I have just been wondering about the overall competitiveness of Dark Eldar, in a tournament situation. i hope this was the right place to post this, and if not please forgive me. Thank you for your responses in advance.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 04 2011, 11:26

I'm pretty sure this should be in tactics and a mod will move it soon.

To answer the question, DE are probably in the 2nd tier of armies at tournaments. Top tier would be IG, GK's and Bangles in my opinion.
However we have some very strong builds available to us, venom spam springs to mind, with which on any given weekend we can and do win. Some match-ups are very difficult, Hydra/vendetta spam IG, and psyfleman dread GK's give us a very hard time. Against these we need to be on our game and have a decent amount of BLOS on the table, otherwise it's going to be a very long (short) day at the table.
On the otherhand, Nids and horde Orks should present very little difficulty to a competent DE general.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 04 2011, 16:43

Moved.

I basically agree with Kenny (though rating BA and not mentioning Wolves seems...odd, and IG are probably not as top tier as they once were)

My list would be about like so;

Wolves
Knights
Guard (most people seem to rank them lower, but I think it's just because they're not a bandwagon anymore)
Dark Eldar
Blood Angels (many rank Angels above DE, but I think they're out of their gourd)

Things will also potentially shift up if the Necron Scarab Spam lists prove good enough to gak with Razorspam armies.

Also some of those matchups can be better/worse. For instance, IG are a *terror* for DE to fight, on the flip side, the most competitive GK build actually is easier for us to beat, while their secondary build is almost as bad as saying 'DE auto lose'.

In the grand scheme of the game I think most people will agree DE are low top tier, or high second tier. We're competitive, we can win tournaments, and there is not much out there that our codex can't beat, but we are not an army that people will scream 'cheese!' about and thus will not ever be in the top three.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 04 2011, 22:51

Venomspam doesn't win games vs. mech armies, but a balance of both Raiders and Venoms does (and has been favoring me well) Just...last event I went to I lost to Mech BA because even though he didn't leave 18" past his edge, the dice gods frowned on me and a dark lance curse hit (Hit with like everything, got no armour pen/damage table results)

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 05 2011, 06:52

Thor665 wrote:

Wolves
Knights
Guard (most people seem to rank them lower, but I think it's just because they're not a bandwagon anymore)
Dark Eldar
Blood Angels (many rank Angels above DE, but I think they're out of their gourd)

Things will also potentially shift up if the Necron Scarab Spam lists prove good enough to gak with Razorspam armies.

Should be about right. But I highly doubt that an IG army would lose against a Wolves army though, seeing that the IG could potentially outgun everything on the list.

Thor665 wrote:

In the grand scheme of the game I think most people will agree DE are low top tier, or high second tier. We're competitive, we can win tournaments, and there is not much out there that our codex can't beat, but we are not an army that people will scream 'cheese!' about and thus will not ever be in the top three.

The only gripe I have with the DE ranking is the fact that the only reason why we are not in the top three is because we can't survive very long in a ranged firefight. That and the impossibility of stunlocking multiple vehicles.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 05 2011, 18:22

Crisis_Vyper wrote:
Should be about right. But I highly doubt that an IG army would lose against a Wolves army though, seeing that the IG could potentially outgun everything on the list.
Outgun with what though? I mean, a Razorwolves list will have 6 3x missile shots plus a number of lascannons, plus an ability to move up field with Thunderwolves and or melta numbers. I can't see IG effectively taking an objective from Wolves and holding an objective from nearby Wolves would be chancy to say the least. In a shooting war, first turn gets some solid advantages, but it's still hardly an assured IG romp. Overall I think Wolves are a more dependable army that will perform well versus a variety of foes, and consequently deserve to be ranked higher than IG.

Crisis_Vyper wrote:
The only gripe I have with the DE ranking is the fact that the only reason why we are not in the top three is because we can't survive very long in a ranged firefight. That and the impossibility of stunlocking multiple vehicles.
I think we're actually pretty good at stunlocking, what we lack is killing capability which hurts us in some matchups (and...yeah, armoring our ships in spit and hope doesn't help much). I've read some pretty persuasive posts where people posit that the easy fix for DE is to make lances AP1 and I'm starting to come around to that - it would make us better able to kill things and transform our spamming stunning into a chance to actually wreck on occasion, which would make a solid change in our shooting mech war output.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 07:10

You know I agree that the DE are a pretty nasty bunch indeed, but I feel that the codex is balanced enough for us to fight and deal with anything. A clever Archon can have his ebemy frustrated and running (in the right circumstances). It really depends on the terrain set up and if you've flayed enough souls to please the dice gods.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 11:12

The main issue with DE is: they`re not a horde army, but die like one Wink
They are very terrain dependant (to get 4+ save and LOS blocking) because if you stand against almost every army in a army vs army shoot out, you lose. So basically you need the advantage of terrain and speed (aerial assault and such) to stand a chance (or immense flickerfield rolls Razz)

@ Thor665

I heard a rumour that normal weapons will get an additional -1 on the damage roll (glancing normal weapon -3 in total) and lance would not get that negative modifier (which would make heat lance a very rare +1 roll weapon) Surprised This would mean that we wouldnt kill better, but our ships wouldnt autodie from bolters Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 13:05

Personally I rate wolves just below Bangles from experience, however everybody will have different experiences of the lists, I reckon there is not much between them.
I find FnP misslile devs and the mephiston delivery system just a bit harder to deal with than longfang and r/back wolves.
The longfangs go down to splinter fire while the BA devs don't meaning I need to apply lance fire in their direction to remove them, which allows the R/back wall with foot assault marines to advance with Mephiston just behind it. FnP on this block is also a mare.

The IG i face are 3 vendetta/hydra/chimera/vet with Psyker battle squad lists. Without heavy terrain tables I have yet to last past a couple of turns really.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 14:03

"Problem" with IG is that they offer a lot of synergy, flexibility (in list building and army style) and reasonably costed (pointwise, it's most expensive army in $$$) units.

I would rate DE as "competitive". IMHO differences between most new armies are so small that we should talk about good and bad armies.
DE are on par with IG, Marines of any colour (CSM are nearly there...) and new Necrons (they are pretty well designed).

Rest... don't click in 5th ed, neither would in 6 due to some severe design flaws (I could list like 20 big "this is stupid for no reason" things in Codex: Orks with ease), like lack of mobility, lolrandom rules, high point costs and pointless units/upgrades.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 18:50

Local_Ork wrote:
DE are on par with IG, Marines of any colour (CSM are nearly there...)
pale
Putting us "on par" with Vanilla and suggesting that CSM are almost at that level just...hurts my soul.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 18:55

Dark Eldar are amazing. I don't know if I could make a "list" per se because its like rock paper scissors, my dark eldar trumps your blood angels that trump your IG that trump my dark eldar haha.
But I will say with a mix of venoms & raiders (6:3) I've been having good luck & took 1st place at a tourny in Oct. and Best General last weekend at a different tourny (painting & sportsmanship dropped me to 4th overall).
Dark Eldar playstyle is not like marines, we don't just stand there & slug it out. We sneak up in the shadows and stab them in the back.
Really if it's not Mech-ed up IG (which I've played twice in tournaments, and beat twice) or Psyriflemen Dread spam (which I've *thankfully* never had to play in a tourny because while it tears us to shreds it suffers against other Marine armies) then you should have no problem. Target priority is huge.
In kill points, take out everything that can hit your Nightshield-ed vehicles (48" range Lascannons & Missile Launchers for example) then stay out of range and pick a unit each turn to unload 6 Venoms into. This is also how you beat Grey Knights (just don't forget to take out the Librarian in Storm Raven so he can't teleport his army up in your face!)
In Objectives, take out their transports and then machine gun down the passangers til only you have Scoring units left, then find your way onto an objective turn 5. Really, this one is easier.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 19:12

Thor665 wrote:
Local_Ork wrote:
DE are on par with IG, Marines of any colour (CSM are nearly there...)
pale
Putting us "on par" with Vanilla and suggesting that CSM are almost at that level just...hurts my soul.

They use imperial stuff with GW price tags Razz And some CSM (not some weird plague-berzerker-lash-oblit things) builds are interesting actually. Somewhere I had list with Chosens, Terminators (!), Raptors (!!),Havocs (!!!) and "normal" CSM. It looked pretty good actually.

Also, Vanilla marines suck* since interwebs says so.


* they don't.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 19:46

Oh, CSM lists look pretty amazing, I think they have one of the most attractive themes to an army when painted up. Competitively they are about as effective as a blind dog in a pork chop factory though.

Vanilla don't suck - but they certainly are not top tier either. They are solid mid level, and all the other various non-Vanilla codices are pretty much superior for any strategy you might care to implement - be it shooting or assault there are marines who do it better than Vanilla. All Vanilla really has is thunder hammer Termies in Landraiders or Vulkan, and neither of those are really the bee's knees anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 20:58

Dude Vulkan ROCKS. Sternguard become so damn killy it's not even funny... never mind at higher pt games where I can basically count on having to re-roll every successful Inv save I make.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 21:29

"AGAINST THE ANVIL MY BROTHERS"

All kidding aside I have played over 100 games against my smurf playing best freind since third edition. He and his bloody raiders have caused me more sleepless night than I would care to admit and I had never tried DE against him...and I guess I never can now. Back to my point, I agree with Thor that they are not at the top of the game anymore but I think they can still be a pain in the but.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 21:55

And this is exactly my opinion. Smurfs are in "better half", while Chaos isn't (but have Power Armours, Meltaguns and Missiles so it make it "nearly good").

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 22:12

Dark Eldar get better at higher points values - at 1500 I get my arse kicked, at 1750 it's a different game completely and at 2000 DE bring lots of pain. My advice would be if you intend to play at lower points levels and want to win rather than own models you like, look at IG.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 22:30

Maybe you just dont fit lists into different formats ? I for example build list for every format from 0.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 22:52

We only play at 1500 or greater, so smaller lists wouldn't get any use, and my 1750 list is quite different to my 1500, all to squeeze as many DL weapons and scoring units as possible, without breaking our no more than 2 choices of the same type (not troops) comp.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 22:55

Thor665 wrote:

Outgun with what though? I mean, a Razorwolves list will have 6 3x missile shots plus a number of lascannons, plus an ability to move up field with Thunderwolves and or melta numbers. I can't see IG effectively taking an objective from Wolves and holding an objective from nearby Wolves would be chancy to say the least. In a shooting war, first turn gets some solid advantages, but it's still hardly an assured IG romp. Overall I think Wolves are a more dependable army that will perform well versus a variety of foes, and consequently deserve to be ranked higher than IG.

Ah, in that sense then it is true. CC-wise the SW have more options, but shooting-wise the IG has more.

Thor665 wrote:

I think we're actually pretty good at stunlocking, what we lack is killing capability which hurts us in some matchups (and...yeah, armoring our ships in spit and hope doesn't help much). I've read some pretty persuasive posts where people posit that the easy fix for DE is to make lances AP1 and I'm starting to come around to that - it would make us better able to kill things and transform our spamming stunning into a chance to actually wreck on occasion, which would make a solid change in our shooting mech war output.

Stunlocking the majority of IG vehicles and GK vehicles is quite a challenge. At least when it comes to BA you know that stunlocking the Preds would cut down the shooting by a whole lot, and 'stunning' the LongFangs will shut down the torrent of fire of SW. IG vehicles are to numerous for us to stunlock, and GK's Fortitude with those pesky Psyriflemen is our equivalent of "Oh crap!GAWD NO!" response. The reason why people take anti-tank is not to kill tanks, it is to shut it down no matter the results.

But despite all of this, the Dark Eldar is perhaps the most competitive of all the Xenos books currently in circulation (Necrons are excluded as we do not know of their performance in any tournaments yet), and has the necessary tools to bring down the majority of all armies out there, some easier than others.


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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 08 2011, 02:34

I actually think DE get weaker as points go up...I think they are nigh unstoppable at 1250 and under.

Let's see, Smurfs top half?

IG, Wolves, Bangles, Deldar, GKnights
are all markedly better.

Orks, Eldar, Necrons (though they might belong in the above list), Black Templars
are arguably better.

Tyranids, CSM, Daemons, Sisters
are all definitely worse.

Am I forgetting any armies? That's 14 counting Vanilla.

I would say I place Vanilla in the bottom half, I think there are seven armies that are better then them (The five in the top list, plus Orks, plus Necrons) which puts Smurfs into the bottom 50% of armies. Besides Vulkan I'd love to hear anyone tell me about a relevant list they have - and Vulkan is hardly all that relevant anymore in the specific question of competitiveness.

If anyone is actually playing DE and having Smurfs stomp them - please drop me a PM and let me help, because there's no need for that to happen. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 08 2011, 04:08

Thor665 wrote:

If anyone is actually playing DE and having Smurfs stomp them - please drop me a PM and let me help, because there's no need for that to happen. Wink

Hubris also kills Dark Eldar, sometimes... Cool

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 08 2011, 04:58

Maybe so...I still don't get stomped by Vanilla Smurfs though Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Competitiveness   Dark Eldar Competitiveness I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 08 2011, 08:02

Try facing something like 6 Rhinos full of double melta with 3 plas/ 3 single missile teams with some MM bikes hidden around the list from vanilla SM.

That'd give DE a run for it's money, especially because it's 12 Scoring units all which have shooting that can damage anything we DE can put down.
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