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 The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread

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The Strange Dark One
Wych
The Strange Dark One

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The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue May 21 2019, 00:31

We really need to talk about our HQs. For the record, I don't think our HQs are abysmal. Yes, they feel like a tax, but they can pull off some weight. Nonetheless, the core problem of our HQs is terrible gameplay design. Tweaking them in a few ways would go a long way.

I also wish Raiders had the option of a "Command Quarters" at 30pts that gives them another slot to transport HQs.

1. Archon
The Archon should NOT be a combat monster. Yes, it should be possible to make them good in combat with traits/relics, but they fail miserably as their designated role as "Overlord".

My wish: Change the "Overlord" rule so you choose one unit within 18" in the shooting phase. All <KABAL> units will re-roll 1s to hit against this unit (also re-rolls wounds with the Writ relic).
This fixes the problems with transports and gives him a designated role on the table. Heck, you don't even need to give him a transport, he can just point at stuff.

For the cherry on top, I'd just give him a Power Sword by default and cut him by 10 points. Then you change the Huskblade into a weapon that is more worthwhile (we could really need an HQ that deals mortal wounds) and make it cost 15/20pts.

2. Succubus
50pts for her stats is very reasonable, but similar to the Archon she fails to make an impact. 4 attacks with 1 damage that hit on a 3+ is embarassing. Even with S5, the lack of mortal wounds makes her a sub-par duelist. In many ways, the Blood Glaive shows what the Succubus really should be like.

I don't see why a Succubus should have a buff aura, let alone one that is rather insignificant. In the end you have a cheap all-rounder that really can't to much of anything.

Easy change? Give the Glaive two attack profiles to cover different threats:
- Two Handed: S+2, AP-3, D2, -1 to hit
- Single Handed: S+1, AP-2, D1, two additional attacks
Done. Now she actually has a chance to carve through troops and doesn't get straight up murdered by multi-wound enemies.

Again, she's not bad value per-se. But it's still a questionable investment that you wouldn't otherwise take.
In comparison, the Haemonculus isn't perfect either but his aura makes him still desirable. And access to the Vexator Mask and an Electrocorrosive Whip makes everything better.

3. Drazhar and Incubi
Those go hand in hand with me because they suffer from similar problems. They both give bad value for their points and are outshined by other options in their category. But for Drazhar this is so much worse because he is a mandatory take for two Kabal Batallions.

Their problems are not unsimilar to those of the Succubus. Drazhar has 4 D1 attacks without mortal wounds and Incubi have 3 D1 attacks hitting on +3. And S4/S5 is nothing to brag about.

Drazhar either needs two attack profiles, or straight D3 damage and a point cut. Similarly, Incubi need to be able to deal 2 damage to non-vehicles, or at least D2 on a 5+.


Edit: This turned out to be much more than I anticipated... it just frustrates me how much little changes could do for the better. I love most of the codex, but it almost seems like they left out HQs deliberately. Did they run out of time?
Is this a cruel joke, or does GW think having HQs as a burden is necessary to keep our faction in-check? If so, we already have one of the most restrictive ways to build an army. Adding insult to injury serves nobody.

Edit 2: Fixed some typos.

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Last edited by The Strange Dark One on Tue May 21 2019, 12:10; edited 1 time in total
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GreyArea
Hellion
GreyArea

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Join date : 2018-04-03

The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue May 21 2019, 11:21

I agree strange dark one. A few choice changes would go a long way to improving the interaction between our HQs and the rest of the army.

I really like the ideal of the pay for 1 more transport slot idea actually, fun idea I haven't heard before!

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Serpent Fly
Hellion
Serpent Fly

Posts : 90
Join date : 2019-03-03

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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue May 21 2019, 16:30

I like that transport idea. Add 1 or 2 spaces for a couple of points (upgrade to Archons command skiff).
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krayd
Wych
krayd

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Location : Richmond, VA

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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue May 21 2019, 18:32

Or, simply just errata Raiders to hold 11, and Venoms to hold 6. For free. Like what just about everyone else has.

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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
Soulless Samurai

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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue May 21 2019, 19:34

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

1. Archon
The Archon should NOT be a combat monster. Yes, it should be possible to make them good in combat with traits/relics, but they fail miserably as their designated role as "Overlord".

My wish: Change the "Overlord" rule so you choose one unit within 18" in the shooting phase. All <KABAL> units will re-roll 1s to hit against this unit (also re-rolls wounds with the Writ relic).
This fixes the problems with transports and gives him a designated role on the table. Heck, you don't even need to give him a transport, he can just point at stuff.

I've been saying this for ages. Razz

The one thing I'll add is that it would be nice if the Archon could buff our Mercenary units, as well as Kabal ones. He is supposed to be the overall army leader, after all (hell, most other armies' HQs are allowed to buff their entire army as standard).

Also, I'm fine with the Archon not being a combat monster. I just wish he was costed that way.

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

For the cherry on top, I'd just give him a Power Sword by default and cut him by 10 points. Then you change the Huskblade into a weapon that is more worthwhile (we could really need an HQ that deals mortal wounds) and make it cost 15/20pts.

Quite honestly, I'm dubious that the Huskblade - even an improved version - would need to cost anything like 15-20 points. Pretty sure that's more than a Thunderhammer.

Anyway, regarding wargear, it would be nice if the Archon actually had some non-weapon stuff. I'd really appreciate the option of being able to swap out the Shadowfield for the 4++ Clonefield. Or, if that's not an option, for the Shadowfield to be not-crap. Wink

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

2. Succubus
50pts for her stats is very reasonable, but similar to the Archon she fails to make an impact. 4 attacks with 1 damage that hit on a 3+ is embarassing. Even with S5, the lack of mortal wounds makes her a sub-par duelist. In many ways, the Blood Glaive shows what the Succubus really should be like.

I'd be fine with the Succubus losing her aura in exchange for a better weapon.

Very minor thing but I always kinda wished she could take a pistol and still use 2 wych weapons.


@The Strange Dark One wrote:

I don't see why a Succubus should have a buff aura, let alone one that is rather insignificant. In the end you have a cheap all-rounder that really can't to much of anything.

Might this be even more of a reason to expand the Archon's aura? If his aura affected all Drukhari (not just Kabal) it would solidify him as the army leader, and allow the Succubus to be pure-melee offence.


I'll also add once again that the Archon and Succubus are crying out for some mobility options.



@krayd wrote:
Or, simply just errata Raiders to hold 11, and Venoms to hold 6. For free. Like what just about everyone else has.

Would be nice. Venoms are especially bothersome for me. Firstly because the Harlequin transport is almost identical yet can hold 6. Secondly because almost every unit had its minimum squad size upped, meaning Archons can't ride with Incubi or Trueborn in Venoms.

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Archon_91
Wych
Archon_91

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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue May 21 2019, 20:49

The problem with fixing our HQ's auras is the aura ability is a core universal design choice, every HQ unit has them and I don't think GW wanted to make exceptions to that, and it's far easier to claim balance when a rule holds true for everyone than it is if some armies have it and others don't, the auras not working in vehicles for example, while it would make sense for our army, if they decided to give it to one than it would have to be given to all, and i, personally, wouldn't want to have to deal with a sm/cm named character with an already ridiculous amount of survivability having another layer added onto them by means of a transport (flying or otherwise) ... Not only that but it could very effectively extend the aura range inches past it's intended range simply because of the large footprint of a lot of models with transport capability (orks stompa comes to mind), and because of the way the our army is split up ... It doesn't really make sense that the Archon aura should effect wyches and so on, trust me I think it's idiotic that this is the way it is
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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
Soulless Samurai

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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue May 21 2019, 21:14

@Archon_91 wrote:
The problem with fixing our HQ's auras is the aura ability is a core universal design choice, every HQ unit has them and I don't think GW wanted to make exceptions to that

But there are already exceptions to that. Neutral

Necron Overlords have My Will Be Done instead of an aura. Tau Commanders have a once-per-game thing. IG have Orders. Chaos now have prayers. etc.

We'd hardly be the first army to deviate from the standard aura.

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Last edited by Soulless Samurai on Wed May 22 2019, 00:30; edited 1 time in total
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Serpent Fly
Hellion
Serpent Fly

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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue May 21 2019, 21:18

So why cant it work in opened topped vehicles? You cant shoot out of a transport... unless its open topped. When doing this you claim those extra inches for the whole squad in shooting. All 10 men in a kabalite squad can take turns shooting from the tip of the shock prow if they want. If auras worked like shooting it would be fine. They could work for other army's too who had opened topped vehicles. If a Genestealer cult primus wants to shout from their truck let them. I know we don't have any but I also see no reason psykers cant cast from open topped vehicles.
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yellabelly
Sybarite
yellabelly

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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2019, 11:53

There are a lot of changes that could be made to our HQs. Archons and Haemonculus are costly. I think Haemies are closer to being worth their points, Archons really aren't. Re-roll auras in such a fluid and fast army don't help nearly as much as they do in something like a T'au gunline, and he doesn't do much in combat without just dying. I hate the 2++, it's a gimmicky mechanic that offers nowhere near the survivability everyone thinks it does. An Archon dies so fast in combat. Succubus are fairly nice and cheap, no idea why the glaive has -1 to hit though, it's not close to being OP. I do find her aura useful for how I play.
HQs are the biggest area that could do with addressing, mostly because of the Rule of Three combined with our army structure. Building certain lists is impossible due to a lack of HQ options.
Overall though, our army works and works very well. I'd rather have our problems than those faced by Grey Knights!

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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2019, 12:34

@yellabelly wrote:
There are a lot of changes that could be made to our HQs. Archons and Haemonculus are costly. I think Haemies are closer to being worth their points, Archons really aren't.

Yeah, Haemonculi aren't too bad. Their defensive stats are actually pretty decent, their melee is tolerable (at least by DE standards) and their aura is at least functional.

To my mind, the only issue with Haemonculi is that they have a ton of melee weapons but all of them are objectively worse than the Electrocorrosive Whip, and their ranged weapons are just awful full stop.


@yellabelly wrote:
Re-roll auras in such a fluid and fast army don't help nearly as much as they do in something like a T'au gunline, and he doesn't do much in combat without just dying. I hate the 2++, it's a gimmicky mechanic that offers nowhere near the survivability everyone thinks it does. An Archon dies so fast in combat.

Agreed on all counts. Honestly, part of me wishes Archons could be psykers. I know it's not really in keeping with out fluff (though it seems we're happily hang out with other psykers), but IMO our army is just crying out for an equivalent to the Lore of Dark Magic used by the WHFB Dark Elves.

That aside, I dislike the Shadowfield because it means I never want to take any risks with my Archon. Because any hit that doesn't kill him can still cripple his only defence for the emainder of the game. Also, an invulnerable save that can't be rerolled seems totally out of place in an edition that's practically built around rerolls.

To my mind, something like a 4++ with a -1 to hit would be a far better representation of a Shadowfield.

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2019, 12:43

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
To my mind, something like a 4++ with a -1 to hit would be a far better representation of a Shadowfield.

I'd take that over the current version any day of the week!

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2019, 14:38

What if the current rules were the same, but there was a stratagem that allowed you to restore the Shadowfield?
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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
Soulless Samurai

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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2019, 14:47

@Jimsolo wrote:
What if the current rules were the same, but there was a stratagem that allowed you to restore the Shadowfield?

Given the choice I would still much prefer a 4++ with a -1 to hit. Hell, I'd settle for a 5++ with a -1 to hit if it went with a cost reduction (since the Shadowfield is the only possible reason for an Archon being as expensive as he is).

However, if it's a choice between 'using a Stratagem to do what other armies get as standard' and 'nothing', I guess I'd opt for the former. Razz

Basically, it's far from my preferred solution but it's preferable to getting nothing whatsoever.

Though even if such a Stratagem were to exist, I foresee it costing 4CPs and having a 50% chance of killing the Archon on every subsequent turn.

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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread   The Big Community Survey 2019 Wishlisting Thread - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2019, 20:06

Nah, it'll be 3cp, roll a d6. On a 1, you're Archon dies. On a 2 he takes 5 mortal wounds. A 3-5 nothing happens. On a 6 he gains it back until the end of the phase.

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