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 A over priced transport for Harlie's

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Marquis Vaulkhere
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A over priced transport for Harlie's Empty
PostSubject: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 30 2011, 04:24

So I have heard about this no transport for Harlie's and I just had to think of a way to take them in a transport. Useful or not they are cool and I would like to see them used in a larger game so I came up with this, admittedly overpriced unit.

HQ- Asdrubael Vect- 240

Transport- Dais of Destruction- 200

Elites- 9 Harlequins- 266
6 kisses, 2 fusion pistols, 1 death jester, 1 shadow seer and 1 troupe master w power weapon.

Total- 706

It says that the dais must start with 9 models in it but dose not limit this to people who may normally take a raider. So Its the only transport that can be deployed with the Harlie's in it. I will try using it sometime and see what happens.

A over priced transport for Harlie's 151928_tactical_genius
Tactical Genius here... lol jk.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 30 2011, 11:16

Yep , idea came up on me forum as well.

Well that is typical deathstar unit - whatever it will charge it will wipe.

With all advantages and disadvantages of that )


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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 30 2011, 15:10

Hate to spoil the fun ( 'cause I would love to use that myself), but isn't it the other way around?

The entry per unit says if a unit can be deployed in a certain transport or not. Kabalite Warriors can be deployed in Raiders for instance. The Dais is a raider in all other aspects. Ergo the warriors can be deployed in the Dais. Harlies can't be deployed in transports as per their entry in the dex.

Or am I seeing this wrong?

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Marquis Vaulkhere
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 30 2011, 15:50

The dais must begin the game carrying 9 models in addition to vect, In all other aspects it counts a a raider. You are correct that in the fact it is a dedicated transport but its a dedicated transport for vect and 9 models |mandatory| of your choosing. Nowhere dose it say the passengers must be able to take a raider or in the harlequins entry that they cannot be deployed in a transport. The only reason they cant take a raider or venom is because there entry was copy and pasted from the eldar codex.

Hope that clears some stuff up.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 01 2011, 15:07

I still humbly object if I may. But maybe we should take this to rule queries.

We agree with eachother up to: "Nowhere does it say the passengers..." Wether a unit can be deployed in a dedicated transport is explicitly mentioned in their entry in the codex (see Kabalite Warriors or Wyches as example). Therefor the reason that Harlies can't take transports is because it's not mentioned in their entry. This implicitly means they are not allowed.

The Dais is a Raider in all aspects, we agree on that. So that means entries in the codex must explicitly say they may take a Raider to be able to jump onboard the Dais.

Where is Tiri Rani when you need him? Razz

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 01 2011, 17:23

@tlronin - I think you have it pretty wrong. The *only* things that prevents a unit starting in a transport are the following;

1. It's a dedicated transport for another unit (only the unit who bought the dedicated transport may start in a dedicated transport)

2. The unit is too big to fit (15 guys can't start in a Raider)

3. The unit is disallowed from getting on transports (Hellions can't embark on a transport as they are Jump Infantry)

All the Dias is, is a transport capacity vehicle. Whether or not you think it's dedicated for the unit of 9 that will join Vect (I personally suspect it isn't, but the way the wording works doesn't matter since they *have* to start in it) is meaningless. Let's consider;

You can buy Harlies in a unit of 9
Vect is legally allowed to join a unit of Harlies.
As infantry Harlies are legally allowed to embark on a transport.

Now, if you could show me the dedicated transport rule that says you have to be able to buy the *type* of dedicated transport in order to embark on it then you would have a case. But there's no rule about that. Units that can't buy transports can start embarked in transports, and many armies do that (like Eldar putting things into Falcons, or Orks into Battle Wagons).

Vaulk has it right.

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Marquis Vaulkhere
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 01 2011, 17:39

Thanks for making everything clear thor... I am surprised because I used to be the one on the wrong side of every rule lol. Good to know I am learning.

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theblackjackal
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 01 2011, 18:00

With the exception of Tyranids, Tau and Sisters, just about every side has access to a non-dedicated transport, and they have always been allowed to transport units that haven't taken them as dedicated transports. Imperial Guard, Blood Angels and Grey Knights airborne lists depend on this fact to be playable. Since there are no rules explicitly preventing one from doing so, the logic follows thusly:

Fact: Dedicated transport may only carry the unit it was purchased for.
Fact: Independent Characters may ride in a dedicated transport belonging to a unit they have joined, provided that there is room.
Fact: The Dais is a dedicated transport for an independent character.
Query: Does Vect join the unit, or does the unit join Vect?
Fact: The rules for the Dais clearly state that Vect + 9 models must start in the Dais at the beginning of the game.
Query: If the unit cannot join Vect, must his nine companions come from the Court?
Fact: The rules for the Dais do not say that his companions must come from the Court.
Conclusion: When Vect takes the Dais, he must be accompanied by nine models, which may come from any infantry unit in the codex. As Harlequins are infantry units that are not prohibited from riding in transports, they may accompany Vect on his Dais.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 01 2011, 18:24


You can even start Mandrakes with Haemy in there, for whatever idiotic reason.
And that is in FAQ by the way, the exact mechanism how you use Dais rule.

In French codex is suppouse it is treated exactly like Ravager i heard. French DE overpowered )

IS there something prohibiting to start jump infantry there?
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 01 2011, 19:52

@Thor665 wrote:
Now, if you could show me the dedicated transport rule that says you have to be able to buy the *type* of dedicated transport in order to embark on it then you would have a case. But there's no rule about that. Units that can't buy transports can start embarked in transports, and many armies do that (like Eldar putting things into Falcons, or Orks into Battle Wagons).

Vaulk has it right.

See the entries for Court of Archon, Incubi, Grotesques, Wracks, Trueborn, Bloodbrides, Warriors and Wyches. They all say:

"Transport: The squad may take a Raider or a Venom as a dedicated transport (see page 91 for points cost)."

That is why I think only units with this rule may be put in the Dais. Because it's like a Raider, see page 55 under Dais of Destruction: "a special Raider DEDICATED transport..."

Is says so right there...

I think the "must begin the game carrying 9 models in addition to Vect" simply means it's always filled with 10 models at the start of the game. And it doesn't mean you can fling in any unit you like.

But it seems I'm the only one who sees it like this?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 01 2011, 20:16

What does a unit's ability to buy a dedicated Raider transport have to do with Vect's ability to buy a dedicated transport Dais? That's where you're losing me.

Just because Wyches can buy a dedicated transport Raider doesn't mean they can start the game in a Trueborn's dedicated transport Raider. You buy them separate. It's the same with Vect, he's buying the Dais, and he and 9 other models will start in it - there is no requirement about those models other than that. I don't see where you're drawing the connection.


edit - I guess for me the selling point would be showing me where a unit has to be able to buy a transport/dedicated transport to be on one.

The only Dedicated Transport rules are that the unit that buys it has to start on it if anyone starts on it.

Vect is the unit that buys it.
The 9 models he joins have to start with him - but they don't buy anything.
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rwatts
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 02 2011, 23:41

What if all units already have a dedicated transport apart from harlis then they would be the only real option meaning they had to be the ones to go in.
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 13 2011, 09:07

Harlies transport can be found in a Haemie's pocket...... Wink
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mukslinger
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A over priced transport for Harlie's Empty
PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 13 2011, 15:53

Although a little different, Imperial guard do this as well, but I'll just stick to how ours work.

Imagine you have an army of vect and warriors who have all purchased their dedicated transports. By the codex, you pick a unit to go with Vect and they join him in his dedicated transport, leaving their dedicated transport empty on deployment.

- you can deploy empty transports, dedicated or not.
- you can buy a dedicated transport, leave it empty and deploy in another transport.
- only the unit that baught the dedicated transport can deploy in it.
- Units that join other units can deploy in that units dedicated transport. (ie an hq joins a unit with a dedicated transport can deploy in the transport with that unit).
- some transports restrict which units can deploy in them.
- some transports restrict which units can embark in them.
- let's not forget transport capactity
- some units resrict which transports they can embark in. (no termies in rhinos/razors)
- some units take up more than one transport capacity slot (ie grotesques)
- you don't have to be able to buy a transport to deploy in one or embark in one.

Although harliquins can't buy a transport of their own, there is nothing stopping them from embarking or deploying in one, as long as they follow the above criteria. Which means: harliquins can deploy in non-dedicated transports (which dark eldar don't have, but eldar do - falcons) and vect's dias (see codex entry for dias, they are a viable choice).

Grots can't purchase a venom or be deployed in one, because all our transports are dedicated transports. Yet, there is nothing stopping you from putting grots in a venom after deployment, as long as you do not exceed the transport capacity.

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DanceofDecemberSouls
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 13 2011, 16:31

That sounds... awesome. And like it would be shot* out of the game very, very quickly.

edit* fixed spelling because it made me seem like an idiot.

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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 14 2011, 05:16

@mukslinger wrote:

Grots can't purchase a venom or be deployed in one, because all our transports are dedicated transports. Yet, there is nothing stopping you from putting grots in a venom after deployment, as long as you do not exceed the transport capacity.


The only time Grots can emark in a Venom is when the squad size is either 2 or 1 due to their Bulky rule
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mukslinger
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 16 2011, 15:25

I know, hence the last sentence "as long as you do not exceed the transport capacity".

I was implying you should check the venoms transport capacity vs how many slots each grot would take up. I should have been more clear though.
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thecactusman17
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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 21 2011, 09:01

There is nothing preventing a unit that cannot buy a transport from using another transport in and of itself.

Examples of transport units that wouldn't work otherwise:

Land Raiders for any non-terminator unit outside of the Blood Angels Codex

Stormravens (any)

Falcon Grav Tanks (the previous preferred transport for harlequins)

Valkyrie Gunships

Land Speeder Storm

I'm honestly shocked that this question could even come up.

In the case of the Dais, the only rules are that (a) it must contain Vect and (b) 9 other models must be in the transport. Note that you could even choose to fill it with units that couldn't join ICs, if you have any, so long as they can legally enter transports.

Also, one more thing: Death Jesters are fine models, but aren't worth much in a unit of Harlequins. A shooting unit of Harlequins is a unit that isn't running. A unit that isn't running is a unit that isn't positioned for the most effective charge. I never upgrade the shooting weapons on my Harlequins, as the extra wounds almost guarantee that the models in question will be left in the cold by the time the enemy shooting phase rolls around.
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Archeonlotet
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A over priced transport for Harlie's Empty
PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 21 2011, 12:03

@thecactusman17 wrote:
Note that you could even choose to fill it with units that couldn't join ICs, if you have any, so long as they can legally enter transports.

I don't think this is correct. The Dais requires it be stocked with Vect and nine other models. An IC cannot be within 2" of another unit unless it is joining that unit, which I think would prevent them from being in the same transport unless they were joined.

I suppose it could be argued that the rules say they must remain more than 2" apart at the end of the movement phase... but it seems distasteful to have them start in the same transport at the beginning of the game.


Last edited by Archeonlotet on Wed Dec 21 2011, 12:37; edited 1 time in total
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Azdrubael
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A over priced transport for Harlie's Empty
PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 21 2011, 12:36

Hey another thing you CAN deploy Harlies in is Tantalus. And any other IC with them.
Up to 6 of them.Like up to 6 Haemy.With all crazy gear. Thats truly crazy and overpriced transport , and a truly deathstar.
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Torpedo Vegas
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A over priced transport for Harlie's Empty
PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 21 2011, 20:10

I'be uses that unit in Apocalypse, managed to wipe out a unit of 20 odd daemons in one round of CC before being killed by a pack of 40 Khorne Berserkers.

Harlequins are fast enough on foot (thanks to ignoring terrain) and safe from most shooting if you take a shadowseer to where they don't really need a transport.

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PostSubject: Re: A over priced transport for Harlie's   A over priced transport for Harlie's I_icon_minitime

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