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notts
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PostSubject: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 15:03

Right, I originally wrote my list to have simply 2X3 reavers with heatlance, however I have bought the christmas box which has 9, and now I am thinking of what to use when expanding to 1750 points.

a squad of 6 with 2 heatlances and 2 cluster caltrops comes in at 196 points, which seems a bit high.

Would I be better off with only 1, or even 0 cluster caltrops?

Also, I'm aware they aren't a "must take" in terms of competetive/power, but I like the models, and just want to know I wont be handicapping myself by taking 12 of them?
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 15:12

I would gow with 0.
You already should have $#!+load of attacks AND enough AT weapons to deal with vehicles.

Actually I see more=better in their case. IMHO 9, with three Heat Lances shots are "dream team".

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 15:39

Depends.

Prime consideration is - how many open FA slots do you have, and how many points are you putting into them.

Second question - are you hunting tanks or infantry.

I like them as MSU tank hunters and think that's the only sane way to run them. Other people strongly disagree even though they're obviously wrong Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 15:48

I don't really want to use scourges- although they look cool, they are expensive for a one tank kill suicide unit, I don't like Hellions, or want to use SC, and beastpacks are too expensive ££ wise, so I am not using any other fast attack aside from reavers.

MSU tank hunting is what I have them at 1500 pts, 3 qith a heatlance. But thats still pretty high chance to miss so I am wondering if 6 with 2 lances is still ok (better chance to hit, more bodies for survivability, better bladevaning, better combat if needed), or just becomes too expensive. I could use 3x3 with heatlance.

I think caltrops are too expensive for what you get, especially as everone in 5th is mechanized. Now if they let you hit vehicles...

The blade vane attack seems quite situational
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 15:53

I like to go expensive with them. They cost much but also give much.
Anyway... exactly because 1 or 2 shots can miss/do nothing I recommend (nearly) maxed unit.
For MSU we have Scourges and Lanceborn.

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 16:31

I've ran a 9 jetbikes, 3 HL unit and the ROCK when going turbo over infantry... you know, 1s exist Smile

Now I'm testing 3x6, 2 HL... but its a WWP list, so not all that commmon.

I wouldn't buy them anything else than HL and if possible (points) 9 man strong...
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 18:28

2 x 6 with HLs has been pretty dreamy so far. Except on the first turn Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 22:14

I'd say 3x6 with heat lance if you really want to run a lot of bikes - and invest the saved points into other more viable slots.

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 22:19

I'd say that 9 with 3 lance, 3 caltrops is a pretty solid unit that will get plenty of dead transports and plenty of wounds when positioning for the attack. Just under 300 points, but it has two things going for it: it's an excellent multirole unit that puts down plenty of wounds in the movement and shooting phases, can knock tanks around fairly easily, and it can keep up with the rest of your army and your opponent. That latter part is pretty important, because making your enemy constantly adapt to a single unit means the rest of your models are going to have easier times approaching them, or alternatively getting "free" shots against models engaged elsewhere.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 22:50

I Agree with thecactusman. 9 reavers w/ 3 HL and Caltrops. This gives the unit the ability to kill tanks where needed but when they need to run the can take out whole units of infantry.

I play WWP so I usually have them hit infantry first tanks second but that's me.

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 01:23

That's a 294 point unit - also known as a deathstar.
9 RJBs are *not* a Deathstar, not even close - they don't even know the way to Downtown Deathstar, much less where the ballpark is. 9 RJBs are basically easier to kill Marines with inferior damage capability while being much faster. I could get a kitted Archon w. Incubi in a Venom for less, I could get 10 Scourges with a full array of weapons for less, I could get 10 Bloodbrides with relevant upgrades in a Raider for less.

So, if you want to go for the 9 RJBs with Caltrops and anti-mech weapon of choice...just be sure you've already filled up pretty much all your other slots, because I assure you those other slots will be able to cause more damage, be harder to kill, and cost less, than the RJBs.

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 01:42

Cost less? absolutely. Less damage? Perhaps we play differently, but I would say, based on my experience, "NO." Why? Because of a few simple things that people forget.

First off, is that the unit never actually rolls to hit on those flyover attacks. Sure, the number of attacks are variable, but the reality is that you are going to get an average of 18 attacks just with the bladevanes, or about 3 wounds vs. Marines and a lot more vs. GEQs. And you're going to get an extra 1-2 wounds from the Caltrops on top of that, on average. So we are talking about a unit that never gets into CC yet does 4-5 wounds in each movement or shooting phase--enough to cause a morale test at the end of each phase, and severely hamper the response of any squad trying to retaliate.

Second, is the simple reality of Heat Lances: arguably the best weapons in the codex for killing vehicles save for their single drawback of relying only on Scourges and Reavers to put them into position. Against a super-mechanized army like Grey Knights or Blood Angels, these guys can and will pull wins for you.

300 points as a Death Star unit? (Full disclaimer: if you aren't spending 400+ points I don't consider the unit to be a Death Star) At most, we are talking roughly half again cost on most other units in the game with this level of killing potential, and most of those are hyper-specialized. Reavers are able to change their tactics on the fly, literally, going from an excellent shooting unit to a solid combat unit and an aggressive, unrelenting threat to several units in the game thanks primarily to their ablility to rapidly redeploy to be in melta range of anything that might try to avoid them. Killing Reaver jetbikes until they are no longer a threat takes time and determination, which means that your other units will have more opportunities to advance on unguarded objectives/units, or let the Reavers roam free to continue opening up holes in the enemy defense.

Reavers are a "Go big or Go Home" unit. Their biggest perceived flaw is their inability to effectively work in CC, but if you can maneuver them to avoid that liability they will perform well for you over and over again.

To summarize: Like most other great units in the DE codex, your maneuver and application of pressure over the course of the game is what will make Reavers perform excellently or poorly. Do not play these units, or even imagine playing these units, as something they are not and you will do quite well over he course of the game.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 02:15

Well, sure, let's crunch this out.

9 Reavers w. 3 Caltrops buzzing over someone.

6 Bladevanes - d3 attacks = 1.5 average, honestly, but let's say 2 for the heck of it.
12 attacks
3 Caltrops - d6 attacks = 3 average
9 attacks

Bladevanes - 12 hits - 6 wounds - 2 dead Marines after saves
Caltrops - 9 hits - 7.5 wounds - 2.5 dead marines after saves

So my 300 point unit can kill me 4.5 Marines.

10 Scourges w. Blasters shooting at Marines
4 Blasters = 2.22 dead marines - 1.11 dead marines in cover
6 S.Carbines = 2 dead marines
4.22-3.11 dead marines.

They cost about 50 points less than the Reavers and will kill Marines just as well really.
Also - 4 Blasters/lances vs. 3.
Clearly they do a better job versus mech.

Let's try to kill the two units.

10 Marines w. Bolters rapid firing 9 Reavers
Just Bladevaned - 2.22 dead Reavers
Just tank hunted - 6.66 dead Reavers

10 Marines w. Bolters rapid firing 10 Scourges
4.44 dead Scourges

So, unless they turboboosted, Scourges are tougher to kill than Reavers (though smart Reavers should hide in cover, which will make them just as tough to kill as Scourges). But there are more of them, they cost less, and they give you more special weapons for that lesser cost. Also, versus not Marines (Orks, Nids, Guardsmen) the Scourges are actually *better* at killing them than the RJBs.

So, what's the big advantage for the big mob of Reavers here? Basically the argument has to be speed. They kill slightly more *sometimes* and cost more, so their killing power is pretty suspect versus other things in the slot, and the Scourges are basically better at the mech hunting which, to my mind, is the core RJB duty.

So - if you want to argue that the 9 RJB build is really worth it. Don't talk to me about survivability or how good they are at killing stuff, I can handle that, and do it better or as good for less points. You need to justify two things;

1. Why the unit is intrinsically good enough to burn 300 points on as opposed to using those points elsewhere.
2. Justify the speed advantage as really worth it.

I'll accept there are certain builds where RJBs will probably serve better than Scourges, but I can't think of many.

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 09:40


1: Why I am willing to spend 300 points on something is because the points don't matter to me that much. If those 300 points can cause confusion and force my opponent to make bad decisions then they pay for there points.
2: Depends. 42" of movement and killing some Infantry vs 18" of movement and AT or AI. I would like more distance since it lets me reach out to just about anyone on the board especially if coming from a WWP which I have been enjoying immensely.

Thor I think it comes down to a more of what would your rather have personally.

I don't think there better or worse then scourges and I defiantly would recommend people to really think about how they should run them but I have had better success with 9 reavers then 3 reavers. I agree though that 300pts is a lot and should be thought out carefully.

Also i think the Reavers look ten times cooler then the scourges ^_^

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 10:45

Thor665

You forgot about a few things in favour of the reavers:
They can hide in assault phase (which makes heat lances more effective as they can jump from 9" to 15" away) and they can dish damage and stay out of sight (turboboosting and eldar jetbiking)
They have a chance to start with feel no pain.
They can move 36" in the movement phase and get a 3+ cover save.
They are better at assault (I know assaulting with them is like the last thing you want to do, but it might be necessary and with a decent drug roll, who knows).
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 12:26

Quick toughts:

1.- You can't turbo and eldar jetbike...BRB, jetbiking is a voluntary action and you can't do that after turbo boosting ( I actuallly asked that same thing a few days ago Smile )

2.- Start with FnP? How?

3.- Better in assault? Than what?

I love my bikes.

Hell, I carry 18 of them at 2k!!!!!

And people "laugh" at me sinking 450+ points in the 3 units.

They give options that a WWP usually doesn't have (AT and mobility), but lets face it.

They are T4, 5+ 1 wound models.

AAAAAAAAND (here comes the most important thing for me)

Usually, your opponent won't leave you a nice sweet spot for you to land safely BEHIND his infantry...

If he does, be sure he plans on rapir firing you and ultimately assaulting. And I won't go through the numbers.... say 6 marines assaulting 9 bikes... the bikes are in for some pain I'd say.
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trikk
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 12:39

1) ok, you got me, but still its 36". Scourges can dream of that speed
2) Combat Drugs, roll of 6
3) Than scourges (were comparing those 2 units)

But on the other hand the Scourges look 5 times cooler than the bikes Wink


Last edited by trikk on Fri Nov 25 2011, 14:19; edited 1 time in total
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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 13:52

Good discussion guys, thanks.

I always discounted scourges as an expensive suicide unit. Ie, they will kill a tank, and then die.

Maybe I'll use 5 of them as well as some bikes.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 18:07

I like them in units of 3 with heatlance. They're quite fragile even in larger units, so I prefer having multiple smaller ones for target saturation. Multiple large squads would be even better, but Reavers are something I take if I have points after I've gotten everything else I require (in 1500 points 4+ troops, 2 Blasterborn Venoms and full HS slots)

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 18:16

I don't really like the cookie cutter/spam approach of 40k, so no 3 ravagers/3 blasterborn for me.

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 26 2011, 01:58

@trikk wrote:
1) ok, you got me, but still its 36". Scourges can dream of that speed
2) Combat Drugs, roll of 6
3) Than scourges (were comparing those 2 units)

But on the other hand the Scourges look 5 times cooler than the bikes Wink
1. Oh, most assuredly - my point being that Scourges don't really need it. Their threat range for infantry is 30" and they don't need open space behind the infantry and can stay 30" away if they wish. In many regards that's better than the pure speed - range is a type of speed all its own. There are certain moments when the speed is nice, but in general the Scourges are plenty fast enough to get anywhere and hurt anything if you consider they basically just have +12" range to whatever they're using. That's the same range boost RJBs have for shooting...and considering you need space behind a unit to land RJBs, it's probably as good or better than their threat radius with Bladevanes (I mean, you need at least 1" away, plus the size of all the RJB bases - that's gotta be less than 30" effective Bladevane range most of the time unless your bikes are packed like sardines)

2. Yeah, though I'm not sure 9 bikes is really better than 10 Scourges in assault...eh, they probably are. But anything I'd assault with Bikes I'd assault with Scourges too - and wouldn't assault with either, really Wink But, yeah, the drug benefit would make them slightly tougher in general on average I suspect.

I'm not sure if new Scourges look cooler than new/old bikes. Definitely both types of RJBs look cooler than old Scourges. It's probably down to personal preference with the new ones, they do look pretty boss though.

@notts wrote:
Good discussion guys, thanks.

I always discounted scourges as an expensive suicide unit. Ie, they will kill a tank, and then die.

Maybe I'll use 5 of them as well as some bikes.
Yeah, in the current dex, Scourges are really no more or less expensive suicide than RJBs - unless you go MSU with the RJBs, because they can do MSU better. If you don't like MSU I am *hard pressed* to come up with situations where I think RJBs are better. So, definitely keep the Scourges in mind if you're interested in fast anti-tank/anti-infantry mixed use units - I personally think they are superior to large RJB squads in every way that matters.

For bone cheap fast anti-mech only, however, I think the RJBs win hands down. They have a very low >100 points investment to get a heat lance/blaster on the board that can turboboost or move 12" and shoot. It's not for every list, but it is quite potent.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 28 2011, 15:20

I dream sometime make slave raid type roster with lots of Raiders/Ravagers with Chain Snares (maybe even Venoms) Shock Prows , Void Bombs , Reavers and Tantalus.Carnage in the movement phase.

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 29 2011, 04:56

Personally, my luck with the heat lance is pathetic so I take two to even the odds out. That added with the idea that a larger squad would act as a mobile cover made me choose a larger squad.

Otherwise, I would have agreed with Thor's evaluation that a small squad will be good for what it does.

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 29 2011, 07:11

I admit, that I still have to learn how to employ my RJBs - usually they get shot/assaulted the first round they hit the battlefield. I might be too aggressive...

If they survive long enough, I usually use them for turnoboosting enemy units and contesting objectives/quarters in the last turn


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PostSubject: Re: Reaver squad composition   Reaver squad composition I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 29 2011, 09:24

They should be less threatening than other units.

In other words you must have other A+ priority targets for your enemy if you want your Reavers to survive.

Usually Target priority changes through game from A+ Long Range AT Fire to A+ Hard HItting Assault units.
Means you must see the enemy and decide will Ravagers/Razorwings will occupy 100% of its attention , either it will be Wyches/other assault units ready for assaults and commit Reavers then.

They are too squishy otherwise, they cant serve as frontal attention drawer.They can take fire due to good cover save from 1 enemy unit preferably with quality shots , not quanity.
And they absolutely cant take concentrated fire/rapid fire/flamers.Sometimes it is good idea to reserve them.


Thats mostly a good idea for DE anyway. You should commit big forces , if your know your enemy will be forced to deal with certain units and not the others. That way whatever success he will have you will take your toll.

MSU here will help too , if you divide your targets (disembark) making them less and have one-two beefy targets (wyches+haemy raider , incubi raider , beasts) you can literally manipulate your enemy and force his decisions where to fire.

Add to that your own target priority based on shaking/stunning enemy vehicles and you will get the idea.
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