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Archon Zarkalus
Hellion
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PostSubject: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 02:42

Greetings one and all,

I have a question about the best wargear to take for Haemonculi. As the army I am working on is a Coven... I have decided to make my primary HQ choice an Ancient Haemonculus with two (2) other Haemonculi as a sort of council for him.

The army is loosely based on the Hellraiser movies... so they represent the original Cenebites.

I am trying to come up with the most well-rounded options package(s) for them.

Not that it really matters... then again... maybe it does....

I am using the following models...

Urien Rakarth = Ancient Haemonculus
Haemonculus = Haemonculus Sidekick #1
Lhamaean = Haemonculus Sidekick #2

The only reason I mention this is that I know that the Lhamaean mini is sculpted with two swords and so I thought I would equip her as such.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 03:21

Depends on what you want them to be doing.

Personally with the Arcane Wargear there are only a couple that I think stand out.

Crucible of Malediction: Great against Psyker heavy armies? never used it so I am not sure just sounds like it hurts them badly.

Dark Gate: Cthulhu blast!? yes please. a nice str 10 Large blast will make your opponent think twice about targeting your Hame.

Liquifier Gun: gives the hame some shooty element.

Scissorhand: Adds +1 attack and gives them poisoned 3+. I highly recommend this for a CC based Hame.

I personally all my hames have scissorhands, and a venom blade since i would rather put more wounds on and the venom blade is cheap but if you have the points then I suggest the agoniser or flesh gauntlet with the scissorhands. Might be expensive but things are going to stay dead.

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 03:40

I keep 'em cheap:venom blade and a liquifier. WWP if I'm running that type of list. Otherwise, I keep 'em cheap.

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Archeonlotet
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 03:45

@lululu_42 wrote:
I personally all my hames have scissorhands, and a venom blade since i would rather put more wounds on and the venom blade is cheap but if you have the points then I suggest the agoniser or flesh gauntlet with the scissorhands. Might be expensive but things are going to stay dead.

The scissorhand is a special close combat weapon. I don't believe you can combine it with another special close combat weapon like an agoniser or flesh gauntlet. You could take them both, but you would have to decide which weapon you chose to use in each assault phase.
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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 04:45

it says that It is a poisoned weapon(3+) that grants a +1 attack. Note that this can be combined with an additional close combat weapon for a total of +2 attacks. hmm idk ether way I like the scissorhands.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 04:54

Just the liquifier for mine.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 05:30

@Archeonlotet wrote:
The scissorhand is a special close combat weapon. I don't believe you can combine it with another special close combat weapon like an agoniser or flesh gauntlet. You could take them both, but you would have to decide which weapon you chose to use in each assault phase.
This - you only get to combine non-special CCWs (or duplicate specials) to get extra attacks. You can't use Scissorhands and Aggies at the same time.

As far as Haem loadout? Eh, it depends. What unit are they joining and what purpose do they have in the army? There are a *lot* of viable Haem equipment loadouts depending what you need, and to call one the 'best' would be pretty difficult.

In general I think the only gun upgrade worth doing is the Liquifier - in fact this is usually a pretty solid purchase no matter what.

For weapons...eh, it starts to vary a lot. Scissorhands are the most overall reliable and steady. Aggies can be vital to punch through armor. V/Blades are very cheap. Probably one of those three is the way to go - though sometimes Haems don't even want/need an assault weapon upgrade.

As far as the special gear goes...meh, most of it is pretty terrible and I'd avoid it. WWPs are good if that's the army type you want. There are some other mediocre options that can be pretty fun, but none are 'needed'.
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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 08:24

I like to keep 'em cheap, remember they're low on initiative compared to your other units, have pathetic armor, and must rely on a FNP save. However, they do get a couple useful toys...


1. Liquifier.

Like the old version, it's a random AP flamer. Great way to add some cover save denying possibly armor slagging template attacks to your unit. Pretty decent value too.

2. Shattershard.
Now we're talking. Like the liquifier, only it ignores ALL saves, and removes models from play. They also must take individual toughness tests PER model, meaning you can snipe out HQs and special weapons characters. For 15 points, this is one nasty little toy I strongly recommend.

Much beyond that, you've got the standard assortment of Dark Eldar CC weapons, none of which really make much sense on a T4 character with a 6+ save and I4....
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 08:38

Pretty much none of your Haemies want to see combat (even the ancient or Urien) They just arent built to take a hit. That being said there are some great things out there for them to take.

Liquifier- like many have said its pretty much a no-brainer. our only flamer (other than the next choice) and its just so good. enough said

Shattershard- now this is very interesting indeed. This thing allows you to snipe out characters and special weapons, but its a hard test for MEQ to lose, so I wouldnt count on it always, but hey, if it kills a marine, its made its points back Razz

Venom Blade- my weapon of choice as it keeps him cheap and efficient, and allows him to do something in combat if he ends up in it.

Scissorhands: Some people swear by it, and its good stat wise as well, but I find that I dont like paying that much for a non-PW, but if you get him into GEQ then he will surely wreck face.

PW- Only use if he is in a squad with a pain-token, as FC will make him S4 I5. Its a great thing if you want him to be good at combat, while still being cheap (but remember to pair him with wracks or grots)

Agoniser- Well... again I find this expensive, but I guess if he is an Ancient or has FC it will do fine, but I think your better off for a PW as a killer weapon in CC, and you save 5 points to boot Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 14:55

For me when constructing a Coven theme list you got to look at the design in which you want the Haemys to perform. Are they just giving a token to a random unit or are they expected to support the unit they are with in both shooting and CC?

Most often with my Coven lists the Haemonculi are the sole source of a power weapon while I leave the bulk of the poison attacks to the Wracks/Acothyst. The Acothyst has a problem with power weapons as his/her wargear gives them less attacks than say a Haemy with the same weapon. So I prefer to give the Acothyst, and yes, I take the Acothyst, to have the scissorhand or most often just left alone with standard gear while the Haemy provides the extra support with a power weapon namely an agoniser.

All my Haemys take a liquifier standard as this is a huge part of their anti-infantry production. A Haemy with a liquifier and agoniser can potentially kill more in both the shooting phase and assault phase combined than an Archon can in the same two phases. Now imagine having 1 or 2 more liquifiers coming from the Wracks and 31 poison attacks with re-rolls to wound. I believe the trick here is that the Haemy and Wracks have to stay mobile in a raider and must also charge their enemy and not be charged. Getting into combat however is an art in itself and everyone has to figure that part out for themselves.

So, not knowing the rest of your list I would say that if you are holding yourself to a "true" coven list with wracks as the sole source of troop choices then I'd go with agonisers and liquifiers for the Haemys. If you using wyches or incubi or whatever then as long as their is a powerweapon somewhere in those squads (like a hekatrix with an agoniser) then I think you can afford to downgrade to a poison weapon of some kind.

I do like the shattershard in some instances but it is really a "fun" choice and lately it has not made it into my lists.

I will also say that if the list is going to be designed with a wwp then that too has an affect on how I use my haemys and thus they have a more diminished role so a simple liquifier and venom blade is what they get.

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 17:58

I don't think the ancient upgrade is worth it's points. You pay 30 points for upgrades you don't need. The Ld 9 is pretty useless, since almost every unit that he can join already has a leader with a Ld of 9, just good for redundancy or grot herding.
The BS 5 is even worse. The liquifier doesn't need it and neither the splinter nor stinger pistol are worth it.
The only upgrade, that makes a real difference, is the WS 5, since it hits MEQs on a 3+. Of course the additional attack and wound are nice, but is it worth 30 pts?

For eqipment, I prefer the venom blade, as it is cheap and effective. I know that the schissorhand looks tempting, but it is too expensive.
3 Attacks with a venom blade equal 1.65 wounds,
4 Attacks with a scissorhand equal 1.75 wounds.
With +1 Attack, because of charging they come out even with 2.2 wounds.
If I can or want spend 15 pts, I'll scrape together 5 more and buy him an agoniser.

-Venom blade: see above.
-Stinger pistol: ok, but since you can get a liquifier for just 5 pts more, it is not worth taking.
-Power weapons: Some people swear for them, but with a strength of 3 I think they are not worth 10 pts.
-Mindphase gauntlet: ok, since it doesn't need to wound, but as it only works against ICs and MCs with a initiative of 3 or lower it is not as good as it sounds.
-Fleshgauntlet: a poison 4+ instant death weapon with the pricetag of an agoniser. Just not worth it.
-Agoniser: we know it, we love it.
-Electrocorrosive whip: suffers the same problems as the the mindphase gauntlet. It only works against multi wound models with an initative of 3 or less and even worse has to wound.
-Huskblade: a good weapon, but the Haemonculus is not the close combat platform to support it.

-Animus vitae: a non-poison, non-power weapon, that may give additional pain tokens to the one model not needing it, big no-go.
-Casket of Flensing: a one shot variable strength, ap and attack weapon. Just take a liquifier for the same cost.
-Liquifier: One of the few good items, especially because it's the single worthy shooting weapon, that's not one shot.
-Soul-trap: The soul-trap itself is good, but as it only supports non poisoned weapons it is not a favourite choice.
-Vexator mask: Too expensive, too situational, too useless.
-Scissorhand: Look above.
-Archangel of pain: can be good, but it's pretty unreliable.
-Hexrifle: can be good, but depends strongly on the unit the haemi is put in.
-Shattershard: Another good item. It's relatively cheap, removes models from play, without saves or wound allocation, and does so pretty reliable.
-Crucible of malediction: Ok against psyker-heavy armies, but Ld based and rather short ranged.
-Orb of despair: one shot small blast, with 6" range. This is not good, but strength 10, ap 1 sounds tempting. Only problem is that it can't affect vehicles, so the ap 1 is udeless and strength 10 against Ld equals roughly strength 5 or 6 against toughness. Doesn't sound so good anymore, does it?
-Dark portal: A strength 10, large blast, with a 12" range, sounds equal to the orb, but it has some advantages. Longer range, bigger blast and real strength 10. The ap is a little letdown, but the biggest disadvantage is the price. Tkae it if you have the points, but when in doubt take the shattershard.
-WWP: A good item, but it benefits the list more than the haemi, so in my opinion it doesn't count.

edit: changed the numbers to accomodate for to hit rolls.

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Last edited by Tiri Rana on Wed Nov 23 2011, 21:46; edited 1 time in total
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 19:29

@Tiri Rana wrote:
For eqipment, I prefer the venom blade, as it is cheap and effective. I know that the schissorhand looks tempting, but it is too expensive.
3 Attacks with a venom blade equal 2.5 wounds,
4 Attacks with a scissorhand equal 2.6 wounds.
With +1 Attack, because of charging they come out even with 3.3 wounds.
(I think you're confusing attacks and hits with these numbers)
The important thing to note is that, with furious charge the Scissorhand becomes the superior weapon by a decent ratio. When assaulting with Wracks or Grots the Haem will have FC, so...

On the charge with FC the Scissorhand is also almost as good as the Aggie versus MEQ, which is an interesting consideration as well.
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 22:05

Of course you are right, I forgot to factor in the to hit roll, but because they are based on the same roll, the numbers get lower, but the ratios stay the same.

If by FC, you mean getting the re-roll, than you are right, the scissorhand wins more, than the venom blade.
But I still think, the agoniser is superior to the scissorhand, with an average of 1.33 unsaved wounds against 0.95 unsaved wounds.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 22:10

An Agoniser does 1 unsaved wound on average when used by a Haem regardless of furious charge.

Vs. .73 (vs. MEQ) or 1.47 (vs. GEQ) with the FC and Scissorhands. I feel like one of us is really gakking his numbers up here.

Aggie = 4 attacks on charge, 2 hit, 1 wounds = 1 after saves, yeah? I don't get where your numbers are coming from. Am I messing this up somewhere you can point to?

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 22:27

*facepalm*
I feel pretty dumb right now, looks like, I'm not quite myself today.
I assumed 2/3rd to-hit chance, when of course the haemi just has a to-hit chance of 1/2. So the correct numbers are, like you say 0.73 and 1, but I still think, that more than a quarter wound is worth 5pts, but maybe that's me.
Anyway, I'll shut up till tomorrow, maybe I'm better at math then.

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 22:50

Okay, I knew something was off.
Yeah, the +0.23 vs. MEQ is nice. Is the -0.47 vs. IG, Nids, and Orks (actually, he's even better versus orks, but not by enough to make me want to redo the math) worth paying 5 more points?

The strength of the Scissorhand is just that's it's sort of universally solid versus everything. It can handle armor, and it can handle hordes. Aggies do better versus MEQ, and V/Blades are almost as good versus hordes, but the Scissorhand is consistently a top performer versus both. That's why it deserves consideration in take all comers lists.

I will agree, when paired with Wracks and Grots, I tend to lean the Aggie just to help deal with MEQ as both of those units do quite well versus hordes, but you can't really dismiss the Scissorhand altogether because it is still a solid performer versus MEQ (statistically - it's 73% as good for 75% of the cost, not shabby considering it's better versus everything else.

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Archon Zarkalus
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 23:40

Thanks for all the replies...

So far the weapons chosen/recommended most are....
1) Liquifier Gun
2) Scissor Hands
3) Venon Blade


Maybe a little insight into my thinking could help...

I envision using my Haemys as a "command squad" accompanied by Wracks. I was going to mount them on a Raider and have them work as a more front line fighter. < From what I have heard... that might be a mistake. >

I have asked Santa for the forthcoming MEGASET for Dark Eldar. This set contains:

20 x Dark Eldar Wyches
10 x Dark Eldar Kabalite Warriors
1 x Dark Eldar Raider
9 x Dark Eldar Reavers
5 x Dark Eldar Scourges
1 x Dark Eldar Ravager
1 x Dark Eldar Venom

Add to this....
5 x Wracks
1 x Reaper (Forgeworld)
1 x Dark Eldar Raider
1 x Urien Rakarth
5 x Hellions

This is going to be my army.... for better or worse.

Any comments???


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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 01:38

Ok, first and most important question, do you want to play competetive? I don't mean tournaments, i mean do you want to win?
If your priority is to play your favourite themed army, then just do so, you should take the things you like, because that is as good as taking some unit someone says is better, but if you want to win, whatever list you use, just scrap your idea.
I know it sounds harsh, but 3 haemis with wracks is a pretty bad choice.
1. You are looking at a 300+ pts deathstar, that isn't good at shooting or cc, nor do they have game altering special rules.
2. You just produced pain token overkill. One PT is considered the most important, the second is good for cc units, the third is considered to be a burden more than an advantage, most of the time. The fourth PT brings no benefit at all.
3. You have only one unit that can deploy a WWP. And considering you only have 3 transport vehicles, you should play a WWP list.

The haemis strength is their ability to give pain tokens to units, and so they are best spread out over differnet units.

Just looking at what you have, your list is pretty limited, but not by all means bad.

You have a ravager and a reaper for heavy support, that's not too good and you may want to get a second ravager or for a WWP list a Talos, but we'll work without. 5 Wracks and 5 Hellions is odd, because it's a litle bit sparse, so you might want to expand them a little bit, but all in all the megaforce set is a good start.

I don't know, which point level you target, but I'll try 1750pts, because it's the list size, I play most.

HQ
2 Haemis w/ venom blade, liquifier and WWP_______________200
1 Haemi w/ venom blade, liquifier and shattershard__________80

Troops
5 Wracks w/ liquifier, acothyst and aggoniser_______________90 << One WWP heami here
Raider w/ flickerfield___________________________________70

9 Wyches w/ S&I, Heka, aggoniser and Haywire nades_______148 << One WWP haemi here
Raider w/ flickerfield___________________________________70

10 Wyches w/ S&Is, Heka, aggoniser and Haywire nades_____170 << WWP

5 Warriors w/ blaster__________________________________60 << WWP

5 Warriors w/ blaster__________________________________60 << WWP

Elites
4 Trueborn w/ blasters_________________________________108
Venom w/ splintercannon_______________________________65

Fast Attack
6 Reavers w/ heatlances_______________________________156 << WWP

3 Reavers w/ heatlance________________________________78 << WWP

5 Scourges w/ HW blasters_____________________________130 << WWP

Heavy Support
Ravager w/ flickerfield_________________________________115
Reaper w/ flickerfield__________________________________145

__________________________________________________1745

This list isn't perfect, but an example, what can be built out of the things you have. I know, that with 4 trueborn I'm 4 guys over your warrior count, but TB can be built from hangerons, spare parts and other models fairly easy.

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Archon Zarkalus
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 01:49

Tiri Rana.... That is awesome!!! Thank you so much. I have played various other armies and usually, I have other people that I play with that can give me an idea of good and bad. Alas... I do not play with any other DE players.

I have been scouring the web for ideas, but there is SOOOO much out there... I got lost.

As far as the type of army.... I want to WIN!!!! Well... don't we all? The Hellraiser/Haemonculus theme came about as an idea to create an army around.

My original theme plan was to make my army Poisoned Tongue and then to make a conversion for Lady Malys.

I opted to go for a different idea... I had also thought of making my leader an Archon with a Haemonculus as his #2 guy.

Thanks for the idea for the army and I will play around with it.

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 08:26

I use my Haemonculi with a Venom Blade and eighter a Liquifier or a Shattershard. Liquifier and Shatterhsard are both very powerful weapon, and the Venom Blade is cheap and lets the Haemonculus do something in combat. In a unit of Wracks or Grotesques I would consider giving him a Power Weapon, as with 2 tokens he'd have s4 on charge.

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 30 2012, 20:06

In fun games I run a haemonculus ancient with the the hexrifle usually only and I keep him alone in cover, It's weird and un-haemonculus like but i like sniping at some Hq's and occasionally getting that lucky unsave and its good bye Cato Sicarius or good bye Castellan Creed just to keep pressure on my opponent/friends. And some times more then not Ill throw him in a squad for the pain token and with a venom blade but mostly alone as wasteful as it is I know... Embarassed

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 02 2012, 21:00

Has anyone ever considered fielding a haemonculus ancient with a mindphase gauntlet? The I 5 can assure you'll attack before MEQ, including librarians if I remember correctly. That's not to mention orks, tau, necrons, IG, and whatever else. He could be attached to a melee squad, perhaps hekatrixes with shardnets, meant to kill or tie up an HQ and its retinue. He loses his effectiveness if you're playing MEQ with no power fisty or libby HQ's, but that might be less likely in 2k+..? I intend to field this guy some time before long; I just like the idea of forcing 4 tests.
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Enfernux
Wych
Enfernux

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 02 2012, 21:47

For best loadout: Haem A w FG, Liqui and possibly vexator, add in 10 grots w liqui, up one to aber add FG. Haem, depending on role, mostly liqui, sometimes FG and something else, like shattershard, crucible, casket.

If for cheap fnp and bonus burnin luv, haem w liqui.

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Krovin-Rezh
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 02 2012, 22:41

The casket of flensing I find inferior to the liquifier. It does more damage on the average and has more range, but it is far more random (unreliable) and still puts you firmly in charge range of the target. The liquifier can also benefit from clumped up targets, while the casket cannot.

I am a big fan of the dark gate. Kind of pointsy for a single use, short range attack, but man it packs a punch. Also I like causing Instant Death on things with T5. Twisted Evil Combine it with another shooty squad, and you will knock a big blob of models down to size right quick. Watch out for cover saves.

Shattershard is worthwhile against enemy HQs and ground monsters, but otherwise your Haemonculi should be avoiding killy assault stuff (read: shoot 'em to finish off when you they get close enough that you have to).

Hexrifles would be great if you could take lots of them, and you can actually take up to 12 in one FOC. Problem is, that's 240 extra points, assuming you were already taking 6 Haemonculi and 6 Wrack squads. Most people are taking something else, and don't have those kind of points available when there are good choices like Reavers and Beasmasters about. The good news is that every Hexrifle can be split up in a different unit to maximize your chances of pinning multiple units with them.

If we had a way of stacking -1 Ld modifiers on targets, the orb of despai would be worthwhile for nuking special characters and such. Too bad all we've got are torment grenade launchers. Maybe there is an allied ability that could help in this regard?

Soul-traps can be good, considering it'll activate if you get lucky and kill an IC/MC with the shattershard or hexrifle. I wouldn't suggest trying to use it in close combat, as every Haemonculus other than Urien Rakarth gets outmatched your typical challenge, and he doesn't get a soul-trap, sadly. But what is a S6 Haemonculus going to do? Go tank hunting? The re-roll could make a scissorhand or flesh gauntlet better, but good saves still limit its potential.

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On a side note, Haemonculi are definitely better in a Coven than mixed in with Cult or Kabal units. The reason for this is that some armies can make it rain with S6 lasers and the like, and FNP then goes away on those T3 units. If this happens, your Haemonculi are basically wasted points, aside from their guns. Wracks have T4 though. Aside from the occasional melta, krak missile, monster, or lance, they're pretty much always getting that extra 5+.

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Haemonculus...   Best load-out for Haemonculus... I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 02 2012, 23:08

well, iduno 33 wounds with t5 is very, very good, imho - considering a full tac squad with 1plas, 1plaspistol, 1flamer and bolter the rest does a mathematical 3.8 unsaved wounds in 12" range.
So an ancient haem with 10 grots is a very powerfull tank unite.

on lists, yep, i wuz using a mainly kabal/cult híbrid, but as points go higher, covens are also a very good choice. Ah well have to get up early and sell my apartment, see'yall t'morrow...wait its today...meh *donutz*

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