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 Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)

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Shadows Revenge
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Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) Empty
PostSubject: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 18:28

For those Mathhammer nerds out there (like me Razz ) here is a breakdown of the most used squad builds, and their effectiveness against MEQ and GEQ. Now there are a few constants here. First off all MEQ attacks are against a marine from C:SM, and all GEQ are against a IG Veteran. The DE squad is also considered to get the charge (as we should). Red is the number of unsaved wounds caused by the squad. Green is the number of points the squad has killed of the opposing squad. Cyan Is the percentage of their own point value that the squad makes back in kills. And example is one Incubi kills 1 marine, that equates to the incubi making up 72.727% of his point value.

I have just choosen some of my most commonly used unit composition. If you have any requests, post below and I will gladly add them. Well here we go Razz

HQ:

Vect- 7 power weapon attacks that wound on a 3+
MEQ- 4.150; 66.4; 27.666%
GEQ- 4.150; 29.05; 12.104%

Malys- 8 power weapon attacks
MEQ- 1.776; 28.416; 21.858%
GEQ- 2.668; 18.676; 14.366%

Drazhar- *Coming Soon*

Lelith- 11 power weapon attacks against MEQ; 12 power weapon attacks against GEQ
MEQ- 2.443; 39.091; 22.337%
GEQ- 4.002; 28.014; 16.008%

Rakarth- 5 attacks 3+ poison
MEQ- .740; 11.84; 6.231%
GEQ- 1.977; 13.839; 7.283%

Duke- *Coming Soon*

Decaptator- *Coming Soon*

Sathonyx- 4 regular attacks
MEQ- .784; 12.544; 11.946%
GEQ- 1.571; 10.997; 10.473%

Archon- *Coming Soon*

Succubus- *Coming Soon*

Haemonculus- *Coming Soon*

Elites:

Incubi- 5 man squad= 15 power weapon attacks
MEQ- 5.002; 80.032; 72.756%
GEQ- 6.666; 46.662; 42.42%

Trueborn- 10 man w/ CCW/Pistol, Dracon w/ Agoniser= 36 regular attacks, 5 power weapon attacks
MEQ- 3.249; 51.984; 34.656%
GEQ- 9.667; 67.672; 45.115%

Trueborn- 4 man w/ 4 Blasters= 12 regular attacks
MEQ- .666; 10.656; 9.866%
GEQ- 2.669; 18.683; 17.299%

Bloodbrides- 10 man w/ 3 Hydra Gauntlets, Syrien w/ Agoniser= 43.5 regular attacks, 5 power weapon attacks
(Weapon Skill Drug)
MEQ- 4.884; 78.114; 41.128%
GEQ- 11.343; 79.404; 41.791%

(Strength Drug)
MEQ- 4.871; 77.936; 41.018%
GEQ- 14.575; 102.025; 53.697%

[Attack Drug (52.5 regular attacks, 6 PW attacks)]
MEQ- 4.41; 70.56; 37.136%
GEQ- 13.679; 95.753; 50.396%

(Re-Roll Drug)
MEQ- 5.895; 94.32; 49.642%
GEQ- 21.853; 152.971; 80.051%

Bloodbrides- 10 man w/ 3 Razorflails, Syrien w/ Agoniser= 24 regular attacks, 12 attacks w/ re-rolls, 5 power weapon attacks
(Weapon Skill Drug)
MEQ- 5.403; 86.448; 45.498%
GEQ- 12.341; 86.387; 45.466%

(Strength Drug)
MEQ- 5.495; 87.92; 46.273%
GEQ- 15.117; 105.819; 55.694%

[Attack Drug (30 regular attacks, 15 re-rolls to hit and wound, 6 power weapon attacks)]
MEQ- 5.242; 83.872; 44.143%
GEQ- 15.345; 107.415; 56.534%

[i](Re-Roll Drug)

MEQ- 5.756; 92.096; 48.471%
GEQ- 18.509; 129.563; 68.191%

Grotesques- *Coming Soon*

Harliequins- *Coming Soon*

Troops:

Warriors- 5 man squad w/ Blaster= 10 regular attacks
MEQ- .554; 8.864; 14.774%
GEQ- 2.224; 15.568; 25.594%

Warriors- 10 man squad w/ Splinter Cannon, Blaster= 20 regular attacks
MEQ- 1.108; 17.728; 15.415%
GEQ- 4.448; 31.136; 27.074%

Wyches-10 man w/ 2 Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser= 32 regular attacks, 4 power weapon attacks
(Weapon Skill Drug)
MEQ- 3.67; 58.72; 39.146%
GEQ- 8.452; 59.164; 39.442%

(Strength Drug)
MEQ- 3.664; 58.624; 39.082%
GEQ- 10.829; 70.803; 50.535%

[Attack Drug (41 regular attacks, 5 PW attacks)]
MEQ- 3.523; 56.368; 37.578%
GEQ- 10.787; 75.509; 50.339%

(Re-Roll Drug)
MEQ- 4.457; 71.312; 47.475%
GEQ- 12.174; 85.218; 56.812%

Wyches- 10 man w/ 2 Razorflails, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser= 21 regular attacks, 6 attacks w/ re-rolls, 4 power weapon attacks - *Coming Soon*

Wracks- 5 man squad w/ Liquifier= 14 poison attacks 4+ poison
MEQ- 1.165; 18.64; 31.066%
GEQ- 3.114; 21.798; 36.33%

Wracks- 10 man squad w/ 2 liquifier, Aycothist w/ Agoniser= 25 poison attacks, 3 power weapon attacks 4+ poison
MEQ- 2.831; 45.296; 30.197%
GEQ- 9.091; 63.637; 42.424%

Hellions- *Coming Soon*

Fast Attack:

Scourges- *Coming Soon*

Reavers- *Coming Soon*

Beasts- *Coming Soon*

Heavy Support:

Talos- *Coming Soon*

Chronos- *Coming Soon*


Last edited by Shadows Revenge on Wed Dec 14 2011, 15:44; edited 9 times in total (Reason for editing : added one wych squad, will add the other later today)
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 19:39

Now that is a ballsy undertaking - I look forward to this being finished.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 20:10

So just added razorflails bloodbrides (ZOMG that was alota math....) Warriors and Wracks.

Ive been kinda supprised by some of these numbers. So far Ill comment on what supprised me:

Incubi- man they are made to roflstomp marines. Thats a crazy return ratio, and against guard they arent that bad, two rounds of combat and they have more than made up their points back. Maybe thats why Kelly didnt want to give them grenades Razz

Trueborn: Those CC Trueborn numbers supprised me alot. Even with S3 they have decent returns. Now if only they could take a hit in combat Razz

Bloodbrides: Hmm... Ive always liked gauntlets in killy wych squads, but I might have to swtich to flails. In every drug catagory except for re-roll drug flails out-preform the average amount of attacks for the gauntlets, and even the MEQ stats wasnt by much, although those guard kills were insane with the gauntlets and re-rolls.

Warriors- Didnt really supprised me. Solitifies my thoughts of never... EVER... put points to make them surivive combat... because they wont.

Wracks: This supprised me. Ever since this codex came out, Ive slowly shifted away from wyches and towards wracks as my offensive troop choice, and I must say they underpreformed what I hoped. I normally run them with a haemie, which ofc boost their damage output (I guess I might have to do that in here as well). Also I havent done the stats for wyches yet either, but if they are even remotely close to the returns on bloodbrides... wracks might get put into the box as my metal ladies come flying back out.

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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 22:38

Nice write-up. I'm curious to see this finished.

On the topic of wracks, did you calculate what the numbers would look like with a haemonculus attached to the unit and thus providing a second PT and furious charge? This would put them at S4 and because of poison let them reroll their to-wound rolls. I think that might change the numbers a bit.

I was really surprised about the wych-weapon numbers on the blood brides as well. One might think that a lot more attacks from the gauntlets make a big difference but in fact the flails outperform them in almost every case, even if only slightly. I guess I'll skip Gauntlets for my lists then and just go flails for killing and nets for tarpitting.

Cheers
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 23:30

No I did not include the haemie w/ the wracks, even though thats normally how I run them. I am just going for a base squad here, and see how they come out. Strangely though this might give people the intention that I am really against wracks, actually I love them alot, and I might do another catagory with known combos, like PGL archon w/ incubi and haemie w/ wracks, just to show how well he works with them.

I was supprised as well, I went with the average attacks out of 3 gauntlets (an average on a d6 is 3~4, so 3 gauntlets net you 10~11 average, so I went with 10.5) while the gauntlets could potentially get you a total of 18 extra attacks (rare, but it happens) that might tip the favor towards the gauntlets. My problem is the potential for extra damage outweigh a more consistant damage output...

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PostSubject: Re: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 23:40

I think this demonstrates how you do get what you pay for with Incubi...
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 26 2011, 00:06

No kidding. I went over pts cost with a C:SM player... we respectfully agreed that 3 S4(5) PW attacks on the charge, for that price, is insane Laughing Never mind the 3+ ASv... But such is the age of Darklight Storm, that even these powerhouses get benched in favour of Blasterborn! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 26 2011, 18:06

I probably should've given an agoniser to my Wracks, btu desided against it since the acothyst has only 2 attacks (posioned weapon and agoniser don't stack) and instead went with the cheap as hell venomblade. Agoniser would let the squad kill atleast one marine a turn. Then again, I don't think Wracks are really meant for wiping out marines in assualt. They're good for using their liquifiers to melt most of a marine squads, then mop up the survivors in assault, or for assaulting low save units and dealing a lot of hits that always wound of 4+ and get rerolls against t3 or less.

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thecactusman17
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PostSubject: Re: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 27 2011, 10:28

The issue I see with Wracks is that while they MIGHT get a few kills more than expected, they will also die easily and probably lose most combats vs. any Marines excepting very small units. Even with FNP, you simply can't ignore that they are expensive Orks with poisoned weapons and slightly better initiative. And Orks are great for their cost to benefit and massive unit sizes, not because any one Ork is particularly great. On the other hand, Wyches can tie up 2-3 squads, survive, and set up a grenade-free charge for your Incubi in the subsequent turn.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 28 2011, 16:00

I disagree with you cactusman, look at the wrack. Same statline as a marine (except for the lower strength, which is negated with the poison attacks) and if you calculate percentage the 6+ save with FNP, it comes out exactly as the marine save. So both marines and wracks are hitting each other on a 4+ and wounding on 4+, the difference is in the weapons. Marines only have a bolt pistol in combat, while the wracks have 2 close combat weapons, which nets them 2 attacks base. It basically becomes a war of attrition in close combat, which wracks do better with 2 attacks base and being cheaper.

Also you have to look at what adding a haemie with them does, as it greatly multiplies their damage output by giving them re-roll to wound (as does getting another pain token). The same can not be said by adding a captain (well... maybe adding a chappie, but who uses them anyway Razz )


Anyway, Ive added some of the special HQs, and will add the rest tonight (I forgot to write down Decap's statline and if dharazar gets +1 attacks for two ccw then +2 for the klaves, or if its just +2) so ill get to them when I get home to my codex.

The other question I am going to ask, What loadouts should I use for my standard HQs??? I was thinking the following, but I am open for any more that you guys use to add to the list.

Archon w/ Agoniser, shadowfield, combat drugs

Archon w/ Huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield, combat drugs

Succubus w/ Agoniser

Haemie w/ venomblade, liquifer

Haemie w/ scissorhand, liquifer

haemie w/ Ancient upgrade, agoniser

Haemie w/ Ancient upgrade, power weapon


Anything else you guys think I should add???
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 28 2011, 16:54

Nothing springs to mind (though people take 'Ancient'?)

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 28 2011, 19:42

true, but Im interested if that upgrade is even worth it with the extra WS and attack. Maybe Ill do the regular haemie w/ agoniser and PW as well, to see if you do gain anything for your costly upgrade Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 00:54

greath post!

There is something i don't get about the Baron: should't he have 5 attacks on the charge (base + hellglaive + charge) instead of the 4 you used ?



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PostSubject: Re: Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11)   Unit Comparison Against MEQ and GEQ on the Charge (updated 12/14/11) I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 08 2012, 22:31

Wracks are a bit of a disappointment, though I also think a double liquefier does wonders in the shooting phase prior to the charge.
This also makes me really curious towards grotesques and their damage output vs costs.

Numbers are nice to have, thanks a lot!

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