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 Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge

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Shadows Revenge
Hierarch of Tactica
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 20:03

well if you think about it its possible to get her FC with the same trick we use for baron, then she would pump out wounnds on MEQ like crazy Razz

I have no problem with her. While statistically she doesnt really put alot, I believe they floated her points alittle for what she can possibly do. Consider you are rolling above average. Its reasonable for her to kill 6~7 marines in one phase of combat. Consider that 4 is 2/5th of a full tact squad... and 6 would be 3/5ths... thats alota dead marines. considering most people rarely take full squads unless they are C:SM, and even then they combat squad them.

I just think most of us old-bloods are use to her being cheap as dirt (literally) for her stats and equipment. There was absolutely no reason to take an Archite in the old book. Now I think she is flavorful, and a decent choice when considering the squad you are taking her in. Is she the best??? Far from it. Is she terri-bad??? Not at all, thats for the Decap Razz
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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 00:47

@Thor665 wrote:
@Arrex - the HQ is the unit, an IC is a unit in and of itself.

You "ignore" the rest of the unit because it's a different debate point. Yeah, I agree that a group of Wyches or Incubi will help you kill more...but whether I'm using Vect or Malys, or a Succubus, that support unit will kill just as much, because the support unit is identical and the HQ changes. We could go into debates of which support unit is best, but that hardly removes a desire to figure out which assault HQ is best as well.

If you want to start a discussion for best assault build or non-HQ unit available to DE I will happily read it - but that is beyond the intended scope of what I'm doing here.

No no, I mean, simply analyzing which HQ model kills the most without checking to see what buffs they provide the rest of the army leaves a lot up to question. Take the Succubus, we all know she's good for the points in terms of cheap punch (I have a very heavily converted one leading my army right now), but she also provides exactly nothing for what ever unit you stick her in. (Except more power weapon attacks) No PGL for Incubi, and certainly no pain token. Then, at T3, she's stupidly easy to insta-kill.

The days of 3rd Ed where characters are just supposed to beat face is long gone, now we expect more from HQs. (Like pain tokens, army wide rules or FOC changes)
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 01:23

The Succubus can arguably provide a pain token, natch.

So you're just talking about how I couldn't account for additional special abilities. Well, as I noted in the first post - there was really no way to do so in a logical way to do so.

I don't think the PGL is a magical extra thing though, it's just a piece of wargear the Archon has access to - I'd be willing to consider a tooled out Incubi+Archon squad vs. Wyches/Bloodbrides+Succubus if you wish, as at least then we're getting into a semi-equal discussion.

I also disagree she's stupidly easy to insta kill. I actually don't even really understand the issue (you and Local both make it). Yeah, I agree, DE are easy to insta kill...but I don't get why the Succubus is magically more prone to it. She has a 50% chance to make her save as opposed to an 83% chance, sure. But I don't want to have either IC have to take that chance. Generally what the Shadowfield is protecting me from is swings from regular mooks or guys with Str 4-5 power weapons. I don't base anything that can insta-kill me - I think that's kind of a dumb idea even with a 2++ save. The way to protect from insta-death isn't a Shadowfield - it's not allowing insta-death weapons to swing at you.

That said, if the 2+ really helps you feel better about your chances, you're not giving up too much point optimality to go with the Archon instead, so it's still a fine and competitive choice. I'm just trying to show how much value the Succubus has.

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 01:37

I'm not arguing at all that the Succubus isn't awesome for the points, especially if you look at her sorta like a more expensive Wych upgrade.

Regarding instant death and DE HQs, there's lots of entire units in Warhammer 40K with either S6, or powerfists. Then there's the dreaded Emperor's Champion... LOL
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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 01:38

Also agree PGL is extremely situational... (One legit use)
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 02:08

I wouldn't say -extremely- situational.

- Incubi (nnnnnnnnnnnnnngh)
- Beastmasters
- Wracks
- Grotesques

All these units would be primo home wreckers were it not for their lack of assault grenades...

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 05:38

@Arrex wrote:
Regarding instant death and DE HQs, there's lots of entire units in Warhammer 40K with either S6, or powerfists. Then there's the dreaded Emperor's Champion... LOL
There actually are not many units that are all Str 6 - and those that are out there I certainly do not advocate assaulting with your assault HQ. That's what poison and regular Wyches are for.

There are *many* units with a single Str 6+ attack in them. I advocate assaulting them just fine, but be mindful of how you assault and prevent the fist/klaw/et al from being in a position to target your HQ with ID attacks, that's what regular Wyches are for.

@Raneth - though to be fair, half of those units suffer simply because Haems can't take PGLs. I usually just muscle the Coven stuff in anyhow, they absorb damage pretty successfully.
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Tanhausen
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 08:39

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
well if you think about it its possible to get her FC with the same trick we use for baron, then she would pump out wounnds on MEQ like crazy Razz

Can somebody help me on that one? Because I don't know what "trick" you're talking about...
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 16:24

@Tanhausen - it's a terrible trick, but let me explain how it would work for Lelith as she'll be very slightly different than how it works for the Baron;

Buy for army:
Lelilth
Wyches/Bloodbrides for her to join
Wracks
Haem

Haem starts with Wyches in transport. (1 pain token)
Lelith starts with Wracks in transport (1 pain token)

Haem hops out of Wych boat, leaves pain token behind, gets in Wrack boat with Lelith.
Lelith hops out of Wrack boat, takes pain token with her, hops into Wych boat.
Wych boat speeds off, now with Lelith and Wyches holding two pain tokens so they have FNP and FC.

Make sense?

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EmoryNay
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 05:50

I have to agree with Thor on this one. I've been playing Dark Eldar for a long time, and though the codex has changed a great deal, a lot is still the same. I learned early on not to count on our survivability; Murphy's law applies pretty well. If bad stuff can happen, it will, and you just prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.

Given that the shadowfield is a pretty expensive piece of equipment that has a 1-in-6 chance of crapping out and doing nothing at all, I feel that the wych save is not all that bad, in comparison. Of course, I think if I were trying to have a resilient archon, I'd just go for clonefield/shardnet shenanigans. Can't take wounds if you're not getting hit.

As for Instant Death, well... Anything with lots of S6 hits, I'd just attack it with Coven units. But then, I'm a coven player, so...

Also, that paintoken trick seems a bit over the top to me. Possibly viable, but I don't think I'd use it personally. (Then again, I wouldn't use Lelith to start with.)
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