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 Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 20:40

Okay, this question basically came up where I was arguing that the Succubus is a silly value for what she adds to assault, and I was somewhat called on it. So here's just a thread to showcase that - basically what we're looking at here is all of the DE HQs assaulting MEQ. I list their attacks, and the number of kills they'll generate.

Click here to go to the GEQ numbers

Numbers in Red represent the ratio of points spent to get that number of Marine kills.

Some entries (basically, anyone with drugs or alternate weapon systems) tend to start getting multiple maths. I actually just broke Haems up into three groups (and I also presumed Haems would always be assaulting with either Wracks or Grots, and so gave them FC). Everything should be relatively clear - a lot of entries with drugs don't do break outs for getting a pain token, or +1 Str, et al, because it doesn't make a difference.

Now, this isn't an absolute situation, because a lot of these HQs do things that are different and many have support powers you're paying for that are not properly accredited for. But this is a good way to kind of discern killing power versus point expenditure (and also helps show why I support just buying regular Hames as opposed to Urien Wink )

====================================
Asdrubael Vect

7 attacks - 4.14 wounds

57.97

Baron Sathypants

5 attacks - 2.77 wounds - .926 after saves

113.39

Drazhar

5 attacks - 2.77 wounds

7 attacks - 2.33 wounds

83.03/98.71

Duke Sliscus

4 attacks - 2.22 wounds - 1.23 after saves

5 attacks - 2.77 wounds - 1.53 after saves

4 attacks (re-roll wounds.Str boost) - 2.59 wounds - 1.43 after saves

121.95/98.03/104.89

The Decapitator

5 attacks - 2.22 wounds (rawr!)

63.06

Lady Malys

8 attacks - 1.77 wounds

73.44

Lelith Hesperax

11 attacks - 2.44 wounds

71.72

Urien Rakarth (presumed FC)

5 attacks - 2.22 wounds - .74 after saves

256.75

Archon w. Agoniser, Shadowfield

6 attacks - 2 wounds

55

Archon w. Agoniser, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs

6 attacks - 2 wounds

7 attacks - 2.33 wounds

re-roll - 3 wounds

60/51.50/40

Haemonculous w. Agoniser (presumed FC)

4 attacks - 1 wound

70

Haemonculous w. Scissorhands (presumed FC)

5 attacks - 2.21 wounds - .73 after saves

89.04

Haemonculous w. V.Blade (presumed FC)

4 attacks - 1.93 wounds - .64 after saves

85.93


Succubus w. Aggie

6 attacks - 2 wounds

7 attacks - 2.33 wounds

re-roll - 3 wounds

42.5/36.48/28.33
========================================

So, lower numbers are better value.

Top 3 Assault Value HQs
Succubus is #1 value - no other HQ will kill Marines as affordably as she can - with certain drug rolls she becomes almost lolsilly value.
Archon racks in at a respectable 2nd, still far behind the Succubus' ratio, but with a better armor save (and more expensive). He does his job as we all knew he does.
Vect racks up 3rd which was a slight surprise to me (I thought it would be one of the Haems) but he kills so well he edges into solid position just a trace behind the Archon.
Big surprise is 4th place is Decapitator - if only he could join units...and was otherwise any good Wink

Bottom 3 Assault Value HQs
Baron Sathypants (in no surprise to me) racks in as third worst value. Not that I think anyone still believes he's any good in assault or that's what you're buying him for.
Duke Sliscus is, not too shockingly, edging in as 2nd worst. His expensive army wide effects lower his value for what he actually does in assault.
Urien (oooh, shock!) is the blatant offender as his tub of floating guts proves that all he really does is wuss slap Marines while screaming 'not in the face!' over and over. If you want extra assault punch...there are better options.


Last edited by Thor665 on Tue Nov 22 2011, 16:22; edited 3 times in total
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 21:37

I've said that Succubi would score high due to low cost Smile

Still, I like Archon (and better save) due to fact that You pay hefty price for both and better save... saves the day.

Oh and 4th place made me LOL. It's sad he can't assault from shadows, like he should.

Good job Thor, You should link that to Your tutorials cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 22:38

Ok, gotta ask: How on earth is "Baron Sathypants" paying more than he is worth to kill Marines? That doesn't even make sense.

And you're right, he isn't much on his own. But 20 other Hellions with him, just straight up? The math speaks a little differently (squad leader with agonizer):

4.7 from normal hellions

1 from Agonizer

.9 from Baron

So we have 6 Marine wounds as strict dice average before adding in Furious Charge or combat drugs. Both of those tend to improve things rather nicely. Price per dead marine in CC? About 75. Price per dead marine in combined CC and shooting? Only 45.5, before drugs. And that squad will typically kill a lot more than just a few Marines.
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 23:36

Quote :
Now, this isn't an absolute situation, because a lot of these HQs do things that are different and many have support powers you're paying for that are not properly accredited for.

Narf. Smile

Man, this just goes to show that Lelith suuuuuuuuuuuuucks.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 00:30

@thecactusman17 wrote:
Ok, gotta ask: How on earth is "Baron Sathypants" paying more than he is worth to kill Marines? That doesn't even make sense.
It's because he kills less than a full Marine.

If he killed 1 Marine - then he'd be worth 105 points per Marine killed.
But with 105/0.9 you're theoretically paying over 105 to kill a Marine, because he might need a second round of combat to do it.

Make sense?

@thecactusman17 wrote:
And you're right, he isn't much on his own. But 20 other Hellions with him, just straight up? The math speaks a little differently (squad leader with agonizer):
If I take those same amount of points and put them into Wyches or Incubi or Beasts and have them help the Baron the numbers would speak differently too (and better than the Hellions I wager) but that's beyond the scope of what I was trying to do here. This is an analysis of the individual HQ's contributions to assault. What they accompany is a separate debate and has no real bearing to these numbers.

If you want to crunch common escort units and compare the values I'd be stoked to see it done. Raneth has already done a bit in the Succubus thread on page 5 if you're interested.

@Raneth wrote:
Man, this just goes to show that Lelith suuuuuuuuuuuuucks.
She scores better than Drazzy, non-Agoniser Haems, and tons of other stuff.
Out of 13 builds she ranks 6th - which though is not what one would want from Lelith is at least not totally shameful (she's slightly better than average, yo!). I will note that, unlike a lot of these numbers, Lelith's numbers would improve dramatically versus GEQ - that might be a worthwhile edit to do if I feel sadistic towards myself sometime.

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 01:08

Here we are looking at the numbers for killing filthy little GEQ, so the situation is, on the charge, versus a pile of generic guardsmen.

Numbers in Red represent the ratio of points spent to get that number of Marine kills.

Some entries (basically, anyone with drugs or alternate weapon systems) tend to start getting multiple maths. I actually just broke Haems up into three groups (and I also presumed Haems would always be assaulting with either Wracks or Grots, and so gave them FC). Everything should be relatively clear.

====================================
Asdrubael Vect

7 attacks - 4.14 wounds

57.97

Baron Sathypants

5 attacks - 2.77 wounds - 1.84 after saves

57.06

Drazhar

5 attacks - 2.77 wounds

7 attacks - 3.11 wounds

83.03/73.95

Duke Sliscus

4 attacks - 2.22 wounds - 1.72 after saves

5 attacks - 2.77 wounds - 2.15 after saves

4 attacks (re-roll wounds.Str boost) - 2.59 wounds - 2.01 after saves

87.2/69.76/74.62

The Decapitator

5 attacks - 2.22 wounds (rawr!)

63.06

Lady Malys

8 attacks - 2.66 wounds

48.87

Lelith Hesperax

12 attacks - 4 wounds

43.75

Urien Rakarth (presumed FC)

5 attacks - 2.22 wounds - 1.48 after saves

128.37

Archon w. Agoniser, Shadowfield

6 attacks - 2 wounds

55

Archon w. Agoniser, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs

6 attacks - 2 wounds

7 attacks - 2.33 wounds

re-roll - 3 wounds

60/51.50/40

Haemonculous w. Agoniser (presumed FC)

4 attacks - 1 wound

70

Haemonculous w. Scissorhands (presumed FC)

5 attacks - 2.21 wounds - 1.47 after saves

44.21

Haemonculous w. V.Blade (presumed FC)

4 attacks - 1.93 wounds - 1.28 after saves

42.96


Succubus w. Aggie

6 attacks - 2 wounds

7 attacks - 2.33 wounds

re-roll - 3 wounds

42.5/36.48/28.33
========================================

So, lower numbers are better value.

Top 3 Assault Value HQs
Succubus is STILL #1 value - oh wow, I didn't see that one coming. All the other HQs can just suck it I suppose. She is silly point efficient.
Haems w. Poison and FC are now showing their stuff, and we all probably expected it. The Scissorhand, as I've often stated, is the most inherently reliable weapon choice, well woth its cost for the steady combat value it provides. The V/Blade does just edge it out due to being lolcheap.
Lelith and her thong roars into 3rd with a dramatic shift in kill efficiency. If we could just start her with FC dependably this would be more like what we would see vs. MEQ. Ah well. Yes, this highlights what she's good at, beating up weenie hordes - she's dang good at it too.

Lady Malys is kinda the surprise sneak in for 4th, probably not a shock as she does generate a big number of attacks, and for GEQ killing that's half the battle, just sneeze on the little buggers and they die.

Bottom 3 Assault Value HQs
Duke Sliscus (avg. 77.19) is again on the low end of the scale. I went with an average of his umbers, and it's perhaps unfair to put him here, with his control of his drugs he can certainly steer towards better stuff, and some of his numbers substantially rank him better on the list. Still, he probably needs to be noted.
Drazhar (avg. 78.49) the big guy can certainly kill things, but he's just darn expensive while he does it. Even his prime killing ratio vs. GEQ isn't that great, and he, as with all Incubi, performs best pointed at things in heavy armor.
Urien remains a useless tub of goo in assault, and manages to make even GEQ look difficult to kill as he sorta vaguely lashes out at them and cries to his momma. Poor guy.

Sathypants moves to 7th out of 13 Wink I mention this just because I'm paid dividends every time I manage to mock the guy. He remains a suboptimal assault HQ - shock.


Last edited by Thor665 on Tue Nov 22 2011, 16:23; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 01:51

@Thor665 wrote:

Top 3 Assault Value HQs
Succubus is STILL #1 value - oh wow, I didn't see that one coming. All the other HQs can just suck it I suppose. She is silly point efficient.
Let me show you my shocked face affraid
Seriously, how has the other thread on the Succubus lasted for 5 pages? She's cheap, she kills stuff, she's good for the points. Why people keep getting peeved about the lack of options I will never understand. It's like buying a cheap Toyota to get to work in when you don't have much in the way of money and then bitching that it gets great gas mileage but isn't as fast as a Lamborghini. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 02:01

I presume they sacked the options so that there was any reason whatsoever to take an Archon.

She's very straightforward, but what she does she does better than really anyone else.

(I think if I could magically change any HQ my change would be that Lelith got an Agoniser and/or Furious Charge...I really want to field her like I used to be able to, but she makes you hurt for it so much nowadays by being so darn specialized.)
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 02:12

@Thor665 wrote:
I presume they sacked the options so that there was any reason whatsoever to take an Archon.

She's very straightforward, but what she does she does better than really anyone else.

Hadn't thought of it that way, but good God man, you're right! Well played sir!

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 06:24

I don't quite understand the debate either. I also don't quite understand the relevancy of averaging out MEQ kills while ignoring every single other factor in regards to the unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 06:37

@Arrex - the HQ is the unit, an IC is a unit in and of itself.

You "ignore" the rest of the unit because it's a different debate point. Yeah, I agree that a group of Wyches or Incubi will help you kill more...but whether I'm using Vect or Malys, or a Succubus, that support unit will kill just as much, because the support unit is identical and the HQ changes. We could go into debates of which support unit is best, but that hardly removes a desire to figure out which assault HQ is best as well.

If you want to start a discussion for best assault build or non-HQ unit available to DE I will happily read it - but that is beyond the intended scope of what I'm doing here.

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 08:19

Is it just me, or does the Archon not include Combat Drugs in the result? Most Archon builds run them and they might affect the result a bit, even if on 1/3 of the results (+1 attack and rerolls) increase his killing power, as they only cost 10 extra points. Also, I wouldn't assume Haemonculi always having FC, as at least I use them primarily to give Wytches fnp.

I'm also a bit surprised on how good value Vect is, as he's really expensive. Considering how he also seizes initiative on 4+ and has a nasty shooting attack, he seems definedly worth including if you can spare the points. Also thought the Duke would be higher than he is, considering he has a better chance of getting good Combat Drugs and while he ignores armour on 5+ instead of 4+. he also wound son 2+ and gets rerolls from poison. Then again, he has less attacks than a regular Archon and is more expensive.

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 08:39

First of all, thanks Thor665 for putting in the time to mess around with mathhammer Smile

Unexpected data there...and keeping it simple is good: just as a thumbrule, huh? Smile

And yes, if you could math of an entire 2k list, with IC, troops, bla bla bla...

1.- It'd be quite a task. Doable, but still...

2.- You'd be wrong completely! Some things can simply not be factored into "thumbrules"...

Better to simply go with a "ok, this unit deliver around X dead MEQ when assaulting...so its my assault, his assault...hmmm maybe not worth going that path" Razz

Again, thanks Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 14:16

lol Thor, youve proven once again that your instincts are golden.

Ive always known the succubus was your cheapy killy HQ, but what Im supprised at is how well vect does, even with that pricetag attached. I might have to compare him vs the other big baddies like Meph, Calgar, and Draigo and see where he stands.

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 15:03

Ok, I think that this isn't complete without one additional bit - how good/bad those guys (and girls) take hits on their face.
I agree (and agreed) with fact that Succubi is more cost/kill effective than Archon, but I'm not convinced if she is point effective like Archon tooled to survive retaliation.

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 15:09

@Local_Ork wrote:
Ok, I think that this isn't complete without one additional bit - how good/bad those guys (and girls) take hits on their face.
Just because while I agree with fact that Succubi is cost/kill effective, I'm not convinced if she is point effective like Archon tooled to survive retaliation.

But Local. we're not designed to get hit back! Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 15:11

Let's call it "it hit the fan" scenario.

Like vs S 4, 6 and 8, with and without PW.

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 15:22

DE bite the big one in the "it hit the fan scenario" Laughing Even the "resilient" ones.

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 15:46

Still, it happen.

If You play vs good player (or ANY player) You either win fight in Your turn and get shot by trigger-happy Mon-Keigh or get punched in the face in Your and his Assault phases. Or worse, not kill everything but win fight, allow them to escape and be assaulted/Bolted by their buddies.

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 15:57

@Nomic wrote:
Is it just me, or does the Archon not include Combat Drugs in the result?
I didn't - it was not my belief that Drugs were a common Archon upgrade, certainly not as common as Shadowfield and Aggie. I'll go and work those in though, it will be a relatively minor bit of work to do an additional Archon build.

@Nomic wrote:
Also thought the Duke would be higher than he is
He sort of looks a little worse than he is just do to averaging out things. Due to drug control you can usually steer him towards something beneficial - note that his best numbers are usually quite competitive in the grand scheme. Still, he has always been accepted, I believe, as a moderate assault boost - his big strength to the army comes in other areas.

@Local_Ork wrote:
Ok, I think that this isn't complete without one additional bit - how good/bad those guys (and girls) take hits on their face.
That could be interesting, though to my mind DE are about attack, not defense. I know you feel I'm skunking the Archon by dissing on his Shadowfield - but I seriously do believe that a 4++ is better than a 2++ that might go away and leave you with no invulnerable at all. The only time it's better is versus ID causing attacks - and I think that a player worth his salt ought to be able to manage that problem, since DE usually will be the ones assaulting and can control who is placed in b2b with whom. I know my ICs never end up based with the power fists.

Still, if we were to do this, how would you propose the math works? Gauging how good they are at not being hurt starts to get...really complicated.
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Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 16:15

Hmm... You know, I guess I can contribute too since You did part of good job already Wink

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Thor665
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Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 16:24

Okay - added in the Archon w. Drugs combo.

4/6ths of the time his average is worse than without drugs.
At his absolute best versus the Succubus at her absolute worse he's slightly better.
None of his numbers particularly change his standing in any real way.

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 18:08

for how they get hit back, my question to Ork is are you going to do after we kill the average amount of the squad, or are you going to act if we whift all of our attacks, and they are at full strength. Also you have to take into consideration of HQ in a squad, or is the entire squad directing attacks at said HQ... so many variables...

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 18:26

Quote :
(LELITH) scores better than Drazzy, non-Agoniser Haems, and tons of other stuff.
Out of 13 builds she ranks 6th - which though is not what one would want from Lelith is at least not totally shameful (she's slightly better than average, yo!). I will note that, unlike a lot of these numbers, Lelith's numbers would improve dramatically versus GEQ - that might be a worthwhile edit to do if I feel sadistic towards myself sometime.
Quote :

12 attacks - 4 wounds

For her pts cost I'm still decidedly unimpressed Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 19:36

@Shadow - yeah, I'm still not sure how he wants to quantify it. There's more variables then I care to try to deal with.

@Raneth - 4 kills still isn't shabby for any unit assaulting someone - most units don't even have 4 attacks, but I'll agree that I'd like her to do more.

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PostSubject: Re: Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge   Mathammer - All HQ options vs. MEQ and GEQ off charge I_icon_minitime

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