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 Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 03:54

I didn't see a post on here about this or on dakka and had it come up in a game today.

So the wording for lances says it treats a vehicles armor value that is above 12 as 12. Quantum shielding says that it counts the AV as +2. The hobby manager at the local GW I was playing at ruled that because quantum shielding isn't changing the AV on the vehicle, it's just changing what it counts as, that a lance wouldn't work on it.

So what are your interpretations? I think that lances should affect it because counting the AV as +2 makes it count as 13 which would move it above 12.
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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 04:08


-There sheild makes the armour +2
-Our lances make armour over 12 12.
If there armour is 11 and they add 2 thats 13

Assuming my math is correct they sounds like they have AV13. Av13 is over 12 so when we shoot it with a lance it sould count as 12 in my oppinion.

The question realy becomes dose the rule make the av13 or still 11?

I have never read the actual rules for it so mayby the wording of the entry would make it clear... Must find the codex... I am off to find it.

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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 04:27

Yeah that was the argument I tried. But they said it just says it counts as having AV +2 and that quantum shielding doesn't affect the vehicle's AV which is what the lance takes its effect from. Then they tried to argue that fluff says the lance is cutting through armour and that it doesn't effect shielding. Cause... you know... apparently fluff = rules now. Which is funny because in a fluff argument earlier in the same day they said fluff wise hellions don't fly they only hover even though they are on an anti grav skyboard and are compared to being at the same heights as scourges and reavers.
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 04:46

The term 'counts as' is always used to show that something gets some properties, either temporarily or for special purposes.

For example:
Models always count as impassable terrain. So they get all properties of impassable terrain, that don't contradict with properties of being models, so they still can move, because they are models and not terrain, but they count as impassable for all purposes.

Units, of which some models moved, but some not allways count as having moved as a whole, so not moved models count as and so are treated as having moved, although they didn't.

Models armed with force weapons count their strength as 9 when attacking vehicles. So they retain their normal strength value, but act as having strength 9 on penetration rolls.

So if quantum shielding counts the vehicle's AV as +2 until the first penetrating hit, then the vehicles armor is treated as being 13 for all purposes, until the first penetrating hit is scored.

Lances always count AVs of over 12 as being 12 for all purposes, when resolving their shots, so they should reduce the AV 13 of quantum shields.

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Last edited by Tiri Rana on Thu Nov 17 2011, 04:52; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 04:51

Could not have said it better myself Tiri Rana

It says in the codex Until it suffers a penetrating hit the vehicle counts all armor values on its front and side facing as being 2+ higher than it is.

Whenever I am playing a game and we have a gentleman's disagreement over the rules I read the rules and attempt to be as exact as I can. In this case it states quite clearly that it counts its Armour as two higher than it is. I am glad to see they are not making new army's just to take out our army Smile

PS. where is the rule that says all force weapons count at 's9' against vehicles? I really want to see that one "Evil snicker".

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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 11:03

Clearly a case where people forgot we are playing a GAME. The rulebook can be expanded up untill a 1000 pages and people will still incorperate their own ideas.

Gamewise I've never secondguessed somehow that 'count as' type things always affect the stats of a unit. So in this case the quantum shields makes AV11 -> AV13 and the Dark Lance on it's turn makes it AV12 again.

I think we all agree on this forum, don't we?

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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 12:34

Well either I get my shot vs AV 11 Or against AV 12 there is no argument for AV13 due to the lance rules.

The shield is an 'ablative' AV in that it survives until the first pen. It's basically designed as a way of gimping the mass autocannon/S7 spam that we see everywhere. Where a cheaper twin linked autocannon is better at blowing up a tank than an anti-tank missile!
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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 14:12

I HATE buying incomplete product (which is loopy codex) but I also think that Lance override QS.

QT rises AV to 13
Lance count AV 12+ as 12

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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 14:23

Whatever QS raises the armor to is a moot point; the lance reduces any value to 12 regardless.

It could raise it from 10 to 14, its still 12 for the purposes of a Lance. So in practice the QS rule only gives Ghost Arks etc a +1 bonus against Lance weaponry.
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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 15:19

The core of their argument seems to be that the AV is still 11 when you're rolling to penetrate - and magically becomes 13 after the die leaves your hand but before it stops moving and our lance rule can't effect it during that period, but their rule can.

That is silly.

Their armor has to count as 13 by the time you're rolling to penetrate it, and at that stage our lance effect comes into play.

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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 17:15

@Thor665 wrote:
The core of their argument seems to be that the AV is still 11 when you're rolling to penetrate - and magically becomes 13 after the die leaves your hand but before it stops moving and our lance rule can't effect it during that period, but their rule can.

That is silly.

Their armor has to count as 13 by the time you're rolling to penetrate it, and at that stage our lance effect comes into play.

That's what I call the 'magic the gathering-ification of 40k' that there is a magical and otherwise unreference phase where the game checks if you are the latest codex and thus applies the most favourable ilogical twisting of the rules as written and intended, c/f Grey Knight falchions giving +2 attacks for 5pts..'
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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 20 2011, 16:24

This is exactly why Privateer Press is so explicit with defining terms like "Always" in order to establish which rule has priority. (Warmahordes) They actually took the time to address rule priority as a separate issue in the main rule book, and that's exactly what GW needs to do.
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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 20:17

Hmmm, I am not sure if GW has at least been consistent with these kind of rules but if the QS was meant to negate lance weaponry it would have had the same verbage as the "Blessed Hull" rule that specifically states it affects lances.

Even if I look at the Ceramite plating on Storm Ravens or the new living metal rule of the Necrons nothing really is directed at the lance rule here.

Looking at it, it just says it raises the AV by 2. Doesn't seem to have any other affect against the other types of weaponry so I would believe the lance would lower it to 12 (which is still a gain of +1).

I think we will have to wait for the FAQ on this one and I do think it will get addressed, its just a matter of time. Remember, it's a xenos codex so they ain't gonna get the benefit of the doubt.

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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 03:49

Well, as others have said, the rules aren't written in a way that "this rule goes first, then this one, then this one" when affecting the same thing. They're applied at the same time. In this case, the armour is raised to 13, but the Lance rule counts all armour higher than 12 as 12. No if's or but's, unless your vehicle has a special rule explicitly stating Lances don't work on it, then the Lance rule lowers all AV above 12 to 12.

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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 05:23

I'm fine with the lance not affecting the Quantum Shielding though.

Of course, for that to make sense we would get to shoot at AV 11 - because is we're shooting at AV 13 clearly our lance rule would work on it Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance   Quantum Shielding Vs. Lance I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 08:10

@Thor665 wrote:
I'm fine with the lance not affecting the Quantum Shielding though.

Of course, for that to make sense we would get to shoot at AV 11 - because is we're shooting at AV 13 clearly our lance rule would work on it Wink

Yeah, I would say that I would prefer AV 11 over AV 12.

But yeah, the wording is just too obvious to twist it around. Either way, haywire weaponry will still screw them over.

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