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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 05 2018, 12:06

Battalion (3CP)

Archon (Huskblade, Splinter Pistol, Soul Seeker) – 80 (Warlord: Soul Thirst)
Archon (Agoniser, Blast Pistol, PGL) – 87
- Raider (Disintegrator, Shock Prow) – 81

Lhamaean – 15
Lhamaean – 15
Lhamaean – 15
Lhamaean – 15
Lhamaean – 15

5 Warriors (Shredder, Agoniser) – 42
- Venom (Splinter Cannon) – 75
5 Warriors (Shredder, Agoniser) – 42
- Venom (Splinter Cannon) – 75
5 Warriors (Blaster, Agoniser) – 51
- Venom (Splinter Cannon) – 75
5 Warriors (Blaster, Agoniser) – 51
- Venom (Splinter Cannon) – 75
5 Warriors (Blaster, Agoniser) – 51
- Raider (Disintegrator) – 80
5 Warriors (Blaster, Agoniser) – 51
- Raider (Disintegrator) – 80

5 Mandrakes – 80

5 Scourges (4x Blaster, Agoniser) – 132
5 Scourges (4x Haywire) – 92

Ravager (3x Disintegrator) – 125

1500pts (6CP)

The second Archon goes in the Shock Prow Raider with the 5 Lhamaeans and aim to take on a hard target. The Mandrakes and Scourges will deep strike. The warlord Archon might start in one of the Raiders, but will aim to disembark and start sniping at enemies (preferably from behind a wall). Ideally, the Ravager will stick near the Archon to make use of his aura. The Venom squads will advance to try and get within rapid-fire range (assuming it doesn't put them in too much danger). If their target is squishy, they might get out and charge it afterwards. Otherwise, they'll just shoot from their Venoms. The Raiders will hang further back, aiming to secure objectives on my side, but can advance as needed. The Scourges and Mandrakes will appear wherever they're most needed.

(If you're wondering, the Warlord Archon's loadout is mostly for fun/fluff.)

I've barely used DE in 8th at all, so any advice would be most welcome.

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 05 2018, 12:12

I’m also considering poison tongue. Do you think lhameans are worth it now for 15? They still barely have a save. Also I’d consider a sslyth, fits the theme and benefits from PT well

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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 05 2018, 12:36

@RedRegicide wrote:
I’m also considering poison tongue. Do you think lhameans are worth it now for 15? They still barely have a save. Also I’d consider a sslyth, fits the theme and benefits from PT well

Well, what drew me to them was that they apparently inflict a Mortal Wound on a to-wound of 4+ against non-vehicles. Assuming that's true, it sounds pretty good.

Of course, as you say, they're very fragile - so they'll probably have to find something expensive and kill it before they get shot to bits.

I don't know if they'll be worth it, but I thought I might as well give them a go.


Good point about Sslyth. I don't own any at the moment, so I'll have to see if there's anything I can use or convert.

Assuming I can find some, do you think I should put them with my Warlord Archon (using them mainly at range and for defence), or my secondary Archon (using them more aggressively)?

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GrinNfool
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 05 2018, 18:46

Interesting. Before the list, can you have 5 lhamaeans? I thought I read that you could only have 4 court models in a detachment now. List wise I have 2 questions on your choices first.

First, are you trying to make a melee kabal list? Not that I would suggest it, but black heart is probably better for that because most PFP things are melee related, and they get +1 to that table.

Second why are you set on poisoned tongue? This isn't a judging question I am curious because I WANT to like them, I love their relic, but I can't seem to come up with something I really like for them.

I do have a few suggestions, you are paying for 2 raiders for 2 5 mans, why not just combine the 2 squads into 1 raider, or even combine the 2 squads into a 10 man so you can take a lance or something too. For the Venoms carrying the shredders I would just drop the extra cannons, you are gaining 2 shots poison shots over its twin splinter rifle at that range, for 10 points. Not worth it at all. Its arguable any of the cannons are, but I am assuming the blasters ones are gonna try to stay at 18" range, so its 4 shots better there. Still not worth 10 points but at least it makes more sense.

I am not sold on the agonizers for all the kabal squads or scourges. The only ones I can see are the shredder teams, since they will be getting in close anyways. If you want melee DE have dedicated melee in the cult or coven, and there is always incubi if you dont want another detachment, though I am dubious on them til I see the codex.

So I think my suggestions net you 100ish points to play with, maybe another venom for your warlord archon, or more mandrakes, or even another scourge squad would all be nice to have. If you can find more points adding a razorwing or another ravager would really help round out your list too. With 1 ravager its going to be a high value target and be removed quickly.
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Dalakh
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 05 2018, 18:55

@GrinNfool wrote:
Interesting.  Before the list, can you have 5 lhamaeans?  I thought I read that you could only have 4 court models in a detachment now.  List wise I have 2 questions on your choices first.
It's 4 per Archon as I understand it.
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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 05 2018, 19:18

I’m thinking you’re short on Anti Tank weaponry. Have you considered dropping some of the disintegrator cannons and replacing them with dark lances?

Do you normally go up against armies with few vehicles and more heavy infantry?
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 05 2018, 19:40

Thanks for the advice, guys. Smile

@ShamPow1999 wrote:
I’m thinking you’re short on Anti Tank weaponry. Have you considered dropping some of the disintegrator cannons and replacing them with dark lances?

That might be wise. Do you think it matters whether I give Dark Lances to the Raiders or the Ravager?

@ShamPow1999 wrote:
Do you normally go up against armies with few vehicles and more heavy infantry?

To be perfectly honest I haven't played in a while. I'm not even sure what would be considered the standard in terms of vehicles.


@GrinNfool wrote:
Interesting.  Before the list, can you have 5 lhamaeans?  I thought I read that you could only have 4 court models in a detachment now.  

I was under the impression that it was 4 per Archon. If it turns out its 4 per detachment, I'll remove one and use the points elsewhere. I don't think it will be a huge loss.

@GrinNfool wrote:
First, are you trying to make a melee kabal list?  Not that I would suggest it, but black heart is probably better for that because most PFP things are melee related, and they get +1 to that table.

Outside of the Archon and Lhamaeans, no. It's meant to be a shooty list.

However, since Poison Tongue gives me rerolls in melee, I thought I might as well have some Agonisers so that I can actually make use of them, should it prove useful.

@GrinNfool wrote:

Second why are you set on poisoned tongue?  This isn't a judging question I am curious because I WANT to like them, I love their relic, but I can't seem to come up with something I really like for them.

To tell you the truth, their Relic is the main reason why I'm taking them. Razz

I did consider using some patrols (so that most of my other stuff could be Black Heart or Flayed Skull), but I didn't really want a 3rd HQ. It also means I don't have to try and remember which unit belongs to which Obsession. Wink

@GrinNfool wrote:

I do have a few suggestions, you are paying for 2 raiders for 2 5 mans, why not just combine the 2 squads into 1 raider, or even combine the 2 squads into a 10 man so you can take a lance or something too.

Well, two reasons:

1) A minor point but having 5-man squads leaves room for the other Archon, should I want to either protect him or have him be mobile.

2) I was taking these squads as much for their transports as for the units themselves.

That said, I think you're right. An extra disintegrator would be nice, but probably not as much as a second Mandrake squad or such.

@GrinNfool wrote:
For the Venoms carrying the shredders I would just drop the extra cannons, you are gaining 2 shots poison shots over its twin splinter rifle at that range, for 10 points.  Not worth it at all.  Its arguable any of the cannons are, but I am assuming the blasters ones are gonna try to stay at 18" range, so its 4 shots better there.  Still not worth 10 points but at least it makes more sense.

That's a good point. I'll definitely remove the splinter cannons from the Shredder Venoms. If I need the points, I'll remove the ones from the Blaster Venoms as well.

I think I'm still stuck in the mindset of Splinter Cannons being an auto-take on Venoms. Embarassed

I also keep forgetting that it's now got a Twin Splinter Rifle as standard (not just a TL one).

@GrinNfool wrote:

I am not sold on the agonizers for all the kabal squads or scourges.  The only ones I can see are the shredder teams, since they will be getting in close anyways.  If you want melee DE have dedicated melee in the cult or coven, and there is always incubi if you dont want another detachment, though I am dubious on them til I see the codex.

Well, as above, the Agonisers on the Kabalites are just there because they're getting rerolls in melee so I thought it would be useful to have that as an option. They're still primarily shooting units. I expect you're right, though - it probably isn't the best use of points. Still, I'd like to keep a couple just to try them out, but if I need some points I'll start removing them from the Blaster squads.

The Agoniser on the Scourges was just to make up points, so I imagine it will disappear when I rearrange my list as you suggest.

@GrinNfool wrote:

So I think my suggestions net you 100ish points to play with, maybe another venom for your warlord archon, or more mandrakes, or even another scourge squad would all be nice to have.  If you can find more points adding a razorwing or another ravager would really help round out your list too.  With 1 ravager its going to be a high value target and be removed quickly.


Sadly, I only own 1 Ravager at the moment. I should probably try and get another. I do own a Razorwind, if I can find the flying base for it. Otherwise, I'll probably go with another Mandrake squad.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 00:37

I just saw someone say on dakkadakka that the Court of the Archon is 4 per detachment, regardless of how many Archons you have (though you need at least one to take them at all).

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 03:31

I've seen a lot of contradictory information flying around about how courts/beasts work, I'd hold off on making assumptions until the codex is in hand, which is o so soon now.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 03:53

I know it’s convention to use the same gun on Ravagers, but as a Kriegsman first and foremost, I am going for a prow lance and sponson disintegrators. That way my opponent doesn’t have easy target priority.
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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 04:45

I think having Lances on your Raiders may be a better idea, simply because it gives more units anti-armor capabilities. I think having a single Ravager in a list makes it an obvious target, especially if it has the lances.
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Dr.Clock
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 07:23

@withershadow wrote:
I know it’s convention to use the same gun on Ravagers, but as a Kriegsman first and foremost, I am going for a prow lance and sponson disintegrators. That way my opponent doesn’t have easy target priority.

This guy gets it. Over-specialize and you breed in weakness.

I don't think you actually need that many venoms... I tend to go bigger into the Elites and FA and just use a couple venoms as objective snatchers. Mandrakes and Scourges will be where you need them to be without having to rely on a paper airplane: doubling up on both at the expense of a couple Venoms is a solid investment IMO, unless you really enjoy that level of redundancy.

2 Raiders, 2 venoms, 2 Mandrakes, 2 Scourges, 2 Ravagers is basically how I start all my DE lists.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 09:45

@ShamPow1999 wrote:
I think having Lances on your Raiders may be a better idea, simply because it gives more units anti-armor capabilities. I think having a single Ravager in a list makes it an obvious target, especially if it has the lances.

I'd like to add a second Ravager, but I only own the one at the moment. Sad

@Dr.Clock wrote:

I don't think you actually need that many venoms... I tend to go bigger into the Elites and FA and just use a couple venoms as objective snatchers. Mandrakes and Scourges will be where you need them to be without having to rely on a paper airplane: doubling up on both at the expense of a couple Venoms is a solid investment IMO, unless you really enjoy that level of redundancy.

Ah, okay. I've barely played DE since 7th, and it's hard to get out of the mindset of taking as many Venoms as possible. Razz

@Dr.Clock wrote:

2 Raiders, 2 venoms, 2 Mandrakes, 2 Scourges, 2 Ravagers is basically how I start all my DE lists.

I really like this idea.

Just one issue, I only own 1 Ravager at the moment. Do you think a Razorwing or a third Scourge squad would work as a stand-in?

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Dr.Clock
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 14:58

[/quote]Just one issue, I only own 1 Ravager at the moment. Do you think a Razorwing or a third Scourge squad would work as a stand-in?[/quote]

Yes most definitely... although Razorwings are Wych vehicles aren't they? If it stops you from getting an Obsession then maybe not.

Triple Scourges is solid, especially with Mandrake backup. For my third unit I take Dark Lances, usually 8 with 4 lances, so that I can use 2 units with blasters at mid-range and also have some Lances drop into a 'sniper' position from a board edge/top of a building. The blasters draw alot of fire which usually means that the Lances have free rein for a couple turns minimum.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue 1500pts   Poison Tongue 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 15:36

Unless they've changed from the index, Razorwings are <Cult> or <Kabal>.

That said, I have been wondering about adding a Cult detachment to this list (mostly for some Reavers).

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