Apparently... we're next.

If you're finding success with your methods Gaz, fair play to you and keep on doing it! Can't argue that you've thought outside the box with your approach.
Comparisons to IG or nids aren't really fair, since it's index vs codex they have more tools at their disposal. It's likely they'll still be on top after the codex though, as they are built to be horde armies. But, an unusual approach to DE may well catch out opponents who haven't experienced it before and take time figuring out how to handle it.
It's not my cup of tea. As Shredder says I don't play DE to play hordes. But that's just my personal preference. I probably will try two packs of 12 dogs and a beastmaster though. I quite like the idea of some big hunting packs.

Okay, since we are discussing builds and top lists. I currently have a problem. We have a tourney on 4th March, 2000pts, 3 detachments, no other limits. Can proxy whatever I like. We are supposed to bring the best of the best we can come up with. My intention was to go with something like 3 bombers and the rest in Corsairs. Roughly 300 poison shots plus bombers. Should kill anything if I mix in some specialists in Corsairs (1 per 5 and can take most guns from CWE and DE).

The only list I cant seem to be able to beat without my opponent's mistake is 100 alpha legion cultists, 20 poxwalkers, 2 Daemon Princes and as many oblits as they can fit in with possibly a herald. Warlord trait for fearless bubble, -2 to hit on cultists, Stratagem that makes poxwalkers untargettable and stratagem that makes them gain one model per each model dead within 7''.
Oh and cultists can be ressurected too ofc for CPs.

Any ideas on that one?

Go make a seperate tactics post, lol.

Big slow moving blob? I’d say find a way to tie it up. Strength 3 right? Haemonculi + Coven Transports of any interest? Otherwise, anything else Toughness 6 should work. Let them break upon your ships like water on a rock! Is this all you can conjure Saruman?

Sure, but I will end up facing ever growing horde of poxwalkers with my ever diminishing horde of corsairs. :-D

Well we are discussing particular lists and nasty ones here since the topic is presumably spent anyway, so I just wondered if anyone has experience in beating it. No need to full thread.

A detachment consisting of Ilic Nightspear, rangers, an Autarch with a reaper launcher and mark of the incomparable hunter, some fire prisms and dark reapers, farseer and warlock are my favourite firebase build of the moment. It will put hurt on alpha legion and their deep striking shenanigans.

How does that deal with the list though? They might not be able to infiltrate that deep, but you will get charged by all that T2 and for every death, you will add one poxy. Illic, rangers or Autarch cannot target the poxwalkers with the Cloud of Flies stratagem. He does not care what he loses. He will win either on oblits or on poxwalker horde that will flood everything you have on the field.

EDIT: I suppose I might be able to (unreliably) kill the pox walkers with the bombers and psykery before they start to grow, but I need to be VERY close and deal with respawning cultist units. Bombers will die T2 100%.

@aurynn wrote:

Sure, but I will end up facing ever growing horde of poxwalkers with my ever diminishing horde of corsairs. :-D

Well we are discussing particular lists and nasty ones here since the topic is presumably spent anyway, so I just wondered if anyone has experience in beating it. No need to full thread.

Not that bad as you make it out to be. Just throw a vehicle in those units. Now you won't kill anything and he won't kill anything so his units do not grow. He can only cloud of flies 1 unit a turn: poxwalkers? great their obliterators will die fast. Obliterators: his poxwalkers wil die in 1 turn of dedicated shooting. For the most part ignore the cultist till either the poxwalkers are dead or not close enough to the cultist unit anymore.
Mandrakes are quite nice at killing poxwalkers as well since pox walkers need 6s to hit them, so he will probably need over 40 to kill a squad in 1 turn. Also what people often forget with things like poxwalkers and other large units that start quite spread out to get multiple buffs (or get more models from multiple units in this case) that all of his guys cannot move trough his own guys and have to consilodate and pile closer to the nearest model. I often used this to hem in larger units of orks and I asume this should also be posible with poxwalkers and cultists. Although this does depend a little bit on terrain and such as well.

He will kill the vehicles with DPs. Oblits in that list dish out like 72 shots on arrival. If I invest in vehicles, I wont have enough bodies to cope. I will be outplayed on ObjSec alone. Vehicles will be gone in 1 turn if he wishes so. Most of my list is mid-range, so to get a shot at oblits, I will need to be REALLY close. And with the volume of bodies in my original list I won't have much room to maneuver.

EDIT: Not that the vehicle idea is not nice, but every raider costs me over 10 corsairs, thats 30 poison shots or 40 lasblasters.

Most of that you can put something in the way so he cant move and will have to shoot and kill it, like a pair of dogs.

Just kill as much bodies as you can and if you can kill the DP's you shouldnt have to worry to much.

Corsairs with Shardcarbines would be good actually. And mandrakes. you can DS the Mandrakes into positions that if he doesnt turn around it will ruin him.

Ah. So the secret to your unbeatable list is to play 650 points more than allowed. Got it.
In that case, yes, you should win most of your games.

@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:

Ok
I'm trying to offer new ideas and get people thinking outside the box
I appreciate it if I'm not attacked for it
I run Tourns 8-10 player ones
Play in interclub games and 7-16 player tourns every months with prizes
There's usually 2-4 top NZ players in those
Everyone I've played is 25 plus old
I've been playing since rogue trader
Ive always played marines but got into DE in 7th
Playing them even when it was hard to do so
Most people I play are in 30s to 40s and experienced players
Never seen younger players around as none can afford it
Since you must know re the list  I'll give you a rough idea
First though I don't currently use a Tantalus
I'm still building mine
Someone else recommend it and I agreed it's ok
It's ok but would die in my opinion in a tournament
Too many points in one vehicle
It's good for the army
Ok so here we go
I use 100 -130 Khymeria beasts
100 are 500 points
They are 10 move 5 up inv 3 attacks s4 t4
U take a beast master with 10 ld
You take another 2-3 beast Masters or more
But at 54 points each it's questionable how many u need
You can drop 20 kbs full kit in rear to shoot and also use 6 BIg Beasties or 20 wyches or another 20 kbs
Depends also on meta at time but always use a harmoculus as I've often killed alot of psykers dropping him in range of the crucible
Potentially you can have table mostly covered in beasts stopping deep strike and movement
Potentially flyers can be stopped moving with no where to put base and must hover
You can use up to 200
But I'm sticking around 130 and keeping 50% of units shooting
Gws Meta is numbers
Numbers is sold models
More numbers better for army
Also with 100 kymeria and 2-3 big kb squads you have around 160 models plus others
Can easily get to 180-200
Most armies I've seen cannot deal with all the beasts plus shooting

To triple check you are saying you paly this list (well close to it)  


This is 1998pts 2 Outriders

Archon
Archon
Kabals x20
Kabals x10
Kabals x10
Beastmaster
Beastmaster
Beastmaster
BM: Khymerae's x12 (6sets)
BM: Khymerae's x12 (6sets)
BM: Khymerae's x12 (6sets)
Khymerae's x12 (6sets)
Khymerae's x12 (6sets)
Khymerae's x12 (6sets)
Khymerae's x12 (6sets)
Khymerae's x12 (6sets)
Khymerae's x12 (6sets)
Razorwing Jetfigher
Razorwing Jetfigher


This is 155 models total




I like to add that my (if i can build it, i'm trying too and its a lot of money)  SoB Foot list will table you in 3 turns...

120 of the 135 models have either a SB or HB they all re-roll 1's, at least 3 per turn of the 6 HB units will shoot twice.

Turn 1 it is 180 HB shots, re-roll 1's wouding on 3+ is 38 dead Khymerae's
Turn 1 (out of Rapid range) is 192 SB shots, re-roll 1's wounds 4+ is 50 dead Khymerae's
Turn 1 if i went 1st and shot everything without my 3 HQ's fighting i just killed 88 Khymerae's

Even if you were able to kill 10-15 Bodies with Kabals and a flyer or 2 (3+/6++ again 0ap and a couple minor shots with AP from RWJF) I still kill around 75 easily. OUT of Rapid range. Next turn it just gets even worst.


Edit: forgot to say 18 of my units (18x5 all with 5 SB's) can scout. SO they CAN be in 1/2 range if wanted too or spread out more, etc..

Anyone else noticed that the list first started with only kabalites and wyches with a couple archon and a couple bombers and with each retelling the list changes ... In some cases dramatically by dropping wyches entirely and going with 30-100 khymaeras, ravagers, RWJF, 2-4 beast masters (beasts weren't even a part of it until someone mentioned them) and then it was mentioned that "the list changes based on meta" at which point you CANNOT claim it's a "one list beats all others" if you change it based on what you are playing against ... I have played foot slogging DE, I played it in 7th a few times and I've played it in 8th a few times it's fine but unless you have an excessive amount of "luck" it isn't going to hold up against most shooting lists unless you plan on spending all 6 of your CP on auto pass moral even blobs of 20 kabs will fall apart quickly to a stiff breeze until turn 4.
And another point of interest ... How are you maneuvering your own flyers if you claim you have enough models on your side of the board to stop your opponents from moving and any deepstrike? If the board is that saturated with models your flyers can't move either ... And then they crash and burn as our flyers CANNOT hover as per their rules.

@Archon_91 wrote:

Anyone else noticed that the list first started with only kabalites and wyches with a couple archon and a couple bombers and with each retelling the list changes ... In some cases dramatically by dropping wyches entirely and going with 30-100 khymaeras, ravagers, RWJF, 2-4 beast masters (beasts weren't even a part of it until someone mentioned them) and then it was mentioned that "the list changes based on meta" at which point you CANNOT claim it's a "one list beats all others" if you change it based on what you are playing against ... I have played foot slogging DE, I played it in 7th a few times and I've played it in 8th a few times it's fine but unless you have an excessive amount of "luck" it isn't going to hold up against most shooting lists unless you plan on spending all 6 of your CP on auto pass moral even blobs of 20 kabs will fall apart quickly to a stiff breeze until turn 4.
And another point of interest ... How are you maneuvering your own flyers if you claim you have enough models on your side of the board to stop your opponents from moving and any deepstrike? If the board is that saturated with models your flyers can't move either ... And then they crash and burn as our flyers CANNOT hover as per their rules.

Yes I noticed the 100 wyches turned into 100 dogs (which are a lot more viable with extra save extra move extra s and extra t)

The flyer part I think is less an issue, you can easily leave a fel 9 inch holes in your battle line that you can put fliers in, or move a squad a little bit so the fliers fit, even if there is no place to deep strike there. The part of the enemy not being able to move when he has normal units seems possible as long as they do not have the fly subtype. Once they get that expecially if they can get an extra move somehow is nearly impossible to stop. That is what makes most of our list so mobile.

Yeah, I think we can agree that he's mostly bullshitting even if there are some good ideas in there.

I think in fairness to the chap he suggested an infantry heavy list and followed that up by saying he had another list he thought was even better.

I dont think he is lying per se, and i think he did do "well" but local meta's are not GT meta's and what works in your local wont work worldwide.  I feel he might be a Big fish in a small pound.  Got a little to big and is doing what the internet does and talk himself up more than he thinks.

For 40k, a player the is unknown of DE hordes/Beasts might be overwhelm with them and leading them to make poor choices. But a GT player, someone that is used to Melee hordes, shooting hordes, and all other types of list types will know how to control the board and what to take out 1st.

They do not understand that highly experience people with the right tools are MUCH better than the average person.

His experiences makes him feel stronger than what it really is. As a person that used to train people for fighting competitions (Like MMA, ATA Sparring, BJJ, full contact fighting, etc...) its is extremely common to have (again with this phrase) "Big fish in little pounds".

Story time! :

 

Story time, just b.c i never talk about it.
I've been training for 15+ years in, TKD, Kenpo, BJJ, Boxing, and Kick boxing. I do not compete much (I have 5 fake teeth, a bad ankle and knee, my back is starting to go, you cant do it forever).

We had this guy that wanted to do MMA, he was the "top" fighter in sparring and BJJ, he was good for his level. But he wasnt trained with other fighters or used to being in the ring. He did a couple local small fights and did ... well, iw ould say only about 10-15% better than the other 2 guys.

He asked me to train with him a bit, I agreed. (Note: I am a Swarmer and out-boxer with both my hands and legs, i am not a brawler. You can look those up if you dont know what they are). He never even been taught about different fighting types. Something that amateur MMA fighters know little about.

It was brutal, i used only about 60-65% (slightly above 1/2) my skill/speed/strength. (I was helping him, never go full force, and i would give openings to help, even tho it was an actual fight, a teacher never stops teaching). He never could gain ground, nor take me to the ground. I was just able to out punch him in the first round.

We had a long talk about what he needs to work on and to not be discourage.

I think there are too many people who seem to have taken his post as a personal criticism rather than a suggestion on how he thinks DE play better in 8th.

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I think there are too many people who seem to have taken his post as a personal criticism rather than a suggestion on how he thinks DE play better in 8th.

I suspect the reason people took his post as personal criticism was that it started off by criticising everyone with a different opinion.

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I think there are too many people who seem to have taken his post as a personal criticism rather than a suggestion on how he thinks DE play better in 8th.

"You are all wrong nad stuck in past"  Thats not personal criticism?


On a positive note. Many asked for his list and some event info (believing him).

Back to negative. He never actually said what those are, i want to see his winning tournament list. I want to see his event he was at.

I dont think he is lying at all and that yes he did win many games, but i think he doesnt understand friendly local meta vs the raw power a world GT list can bring.


I want to add. I dont want to run him off, i would like for himt o stay with us in the dark city and share his games.

@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ If you could show your army pics that would be awesome!

@The Shredder wrote:

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I think there are too many people who seem to have taken his post as a personal criticism rather than a suggestion on how he thinks DE play better in 8th.

I suspect the reason people took his post as personal criticism was that it started off by criticising everyone with a different opinion.

That's exactly it - his post started off being rather condescending and suggesting that the reason Dark Eldar aren't doing well competitively, is because everyone else but him were playing them wrong.
I don't think he meant it to be so patronizing, but it sets people on the defensive very quickly.

On the other hand, if hadn't worded it in such a way, we wouldn't be talking about it nearly as much as we are!

He should definitely stay! Seems like a nice guy with a rather... distinct form of posting!

Honestly, if I were to react adversely to every rather condescending post, or assumptions and opinions that are bordering arrogance just because the form they were presented in, I probably could not be part of any nerd community including TDC. :-D C'mon guys, some of you can be rather harsh in your expressions too and better grammar does not make it any better. ;-)

To be fair, I didn't really give his ideas enough credit. Massed Khyemera with Beastmaster support does do quite a bit of damage.

He definitely has a playstyle that's unorthodox around here, I think it'd be nice to hear more of his tactics and ideas.

@Dark_archon_gaz_nz - are you playing for NZ at the ANZ team championships this year? NZ is coming with a team to compete.

GAZ is planning to unleash his list at Natcon (in April). That's a major tournament in the NZ scene, and if he can back it up there then there is good reason to take his suggestions seriously. At the very least he is pushing some boundaries and the results should be interesting.