Force multipliers and Storm Guardians vs Wyches

Quote :

Give DE a stratagem that prevents enemies from lowering casualties through abilities.
Boom, morale is back as a mechanic.

Not really. Orks still work, for example.

Then just change the wording if that is the issue. I just wanted to convey the idea.
Or add "No positive modifiers of any kind are allowed".

You'd basically have to state "No ability including the word "Moral" can be used by enemies within 12" ", or something like that.

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

Yes that's right they our use of the morale phase would have to negate commissars, mob rule etc

Rather than force a morale test that can be defended against with commissars, mob rule etc, perhaps we had some rules that caused damage to Infantry based on a simple LD test...which means you can avoid rules that specifically help units in the Morale phase.

Give DE a stratagem that prevents enemies from lowering casualties through abilities.
Boom, morale is back as a mechanic.

Concentrate fire on one big blob, prevent enemy ld protection and see the rest crumble in the morale phase.


I would love more weapons, especially ones that deal morale damage but knowing GW they won't introduce new weapons without new kits. Even-though we are really in need of more and better special weapons.

I like the stratagem idea, but how the HELL would you word it such that it catches all of the different versions of 'immune to morale'?

@Ikol wrote:

I like the stratagem idea, but how the HELL would you word it such that it catches all of the different versions of 'immune to morale'?

How about "X causes 1d3/1d6/whatever models from target non-VEHICLE or non-MONSTER enemy unit to instantly flee, regardless of LD value or abilities that limit the number of fleeing models."

@krayd wrote:

"X causes 1d3/1d6/whatever models from target non-VEHICLE or non-MONSTER enemy unit to instantly flee, regardless of LD value or abilities that limit the number of fleeing models."

Very, very strong against elites, what does an Imperial Knight count as?
This looks like it would work, although it is no longer associated to a Morale Check (as in The Strange Dark One's original post).

I have already said that it can't be linked to the morale phase...as soon as you say "morale" they are as strong as they have always been

You simply need to word it in a different way. The effect can take place at the end of the movement phase for example and be called a LD test. That means that all morale boosting abilities, no matter what it is called, don't work.

Then I say make it the end of the shooting phase and make it count all wounds done by splinter weapons.
Fixes a lot of problems we have with splinter weapons (i they become much better against hordes)
Units that are immune to morale have to test but can ignore melee wounds as normal
Units that are not immune to morale are insta gibbed unless you ad a clause that these cuasulties do not count for morale.

Assume you would suffer 1 dead because of the "extra morale phase" that means that in the normal morale phase you lose 1 dead (as normal) and 1 extra because you had another dead one in the extra morale phase.
So instead of 1 dead you killed 3
2 will become 6 etc
It is going to ad up very fast once you can deal damage in the morale phase.
It might be better to have a simple version where the damage is 2d6 - (unmodified) ld

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

...can't be linked to the morale phase.
...need to word it in a different way. The effect can take place at the end of the movement phase for example and be called a LD test... all morale boosting abilities, no matter what it is called, don't work.

Right you are, Dave.
LD test is definitely the way to go, circumnavigates GW's propensity for handing out Morale Immunity quite neatly, whilst still being tied to the 'fear and terror' side of things through the characteristic it works off of.
Though I don't think the Movement phase is the correct place for the test (what is effecting/ causing it?  What is the game-mechanics trigger?)

@|Meavar wrote:

...make it the end of the shooting phase and make it count all wounds done by splinter weapons.
...splinter weapons become much better against hordes...
...It is going to ad up very fast once you can deal damage in the morale phase.
It might be better to have a simple version where the damage is 2d6 - (unmodified) ld.

End of the Shooting phase works nicely, thank you |Meavar.

Perhaps phrasing it as follows: "During your shooting phase, keep a tally of all enemy units in which one or more models are slain by a Splinter Weapon.  At the end of your shooting phase, each of these units suffer a number of Mortal Wounds equal to 2D6 subtract the units LD.

This completely avoids Morale Phase issues, although the models are no longer fleeing which is a slight nerf.  Against single wound models, the effect is the same.  Whilst against multi-wound models, I'm sure it can be fluffed away as the soldiery seizing up in terror and becoming far less composed under fire.

In both cases, however, the damage can be mitigated by x+++ saves, which is a significant nerf.

The 2D6-LD setup mirrors a (an?) LD test, places a cap on the number of models lost to this and allows for synergy with the Phantasm Grenade Launcher and our Turn 4 Aura.

The other way of closing it is as follows: At the end of your shooting phase, each of these units suffer your opponent must take a Terror Check for each of these units.  When taking a Terror Check, roll 1D6 and add the number of models the unit lost during this shooting phase, this is your result.  A number of models equal to the result subtract the unit's LD Flee the battle.

This runs the risk of opening it back up to anti-Morale-buff-ambiguity with the term "Flee", and has a side effect of being far bulkier in writing (though that last bit could be mitigated with a competent user of the English Language).

I would say that have a weapon that deals mortal wounds, and is based on leadership. Something like Mind War, only as a weapon rather than a power.

Yeah, that'd be another way to go at it, FuelDrop.


FuelDrop's Mind War Mimic
R12", S8, AP0, D0
"This weapon wounds against a target's LD rather than its T. A successfully Wounded Unit suffers D3/D6/whatever number of Mortal Wounds."

How does this sound?

Soulshard Mirror: Those who gaze into this mirror risk finding themselves trapped within its bottomless depths. Their bodies fall lifeless to the ground, while their screaming essence is forever imprisoned within the glassy void.

Firing modes:

Convex. The mirror reflects a large area, catching the souls of many weak willed individuals. Roll a number of dice equal to the number of enemy models in the target unit (max 10 dice), adding 3 to each die rolled. for every roll equal to or greater than the target's leadership, the unit takes a mortal wound. Rolls of 6 always inflict a mortal wound, regardless of the target's leadership.

Concave: The mirror is tightly focused on a single individual. Both the bearer and the target Character or Monster roll a dice and add their leadership. If the target's result is higher or equal, nothing happens. If the Bearer's result is higher, the target takes a number of mortal wounds equal to the difference.

Nice!

I assume this would be a HQ only sort of thing, probably Archon and Haemi only, to boot, I can't see such a weapon being handed out to the rank and file.

I like the fluff, too.

@Ikol wrote:

Nice!

I assume this would be a HQ only sort of thing, probably Archon and Haemi only, to boot, I can't see such a weapon being handed out to the rank and file.

I like the fluff, too.

Exactly what I was thinking. I figure that it's the sort of thing an Archon might carry, I figure the Haemi would be more into something a bit more... body horror. Some kind of super-virus or the glass plague ect.

The fluff is based on a relic from the 5th edition book, and is supposed to embrace the evil fey fairy tale aspect of the DE.

@FuelDrop wrote:

I figure the Haemi would be more into something a bit more... body horror. Some kind of super-virus or the glass plague ect.

I dunno, this sort of thing would make for some very quick body-snatching routines, No muss, No fuss. As they say, a good way to grab some specimens in bulk, or a bulky specimen as the situation requires.

Quote :

The fluff is based on a relic from the 5th edition book, and is supposed to embrace the evil fey fairy tale aspect of the DE.

That one also involved the bearer shattering the mirror, if I recall correctly? Making it a one-shot Insta-Gib item.

The 5th ed version did involve shattering the mirror, but was also incredibly powerful relative to what other armies had available. This isn’t anything too groundbreaking, so making it a one use wonder feels a bit pointless.

What range limit should it have? I am thinking 18", on par with smite.

Yeah, this item being effectively a carry-on Smite without the risks of Slaanesh sounds like a good way to run it.

Closest visible unit, too? I would think so, it makes sense as a restriction given its nature. Obviously don't make it a shooting attack, it's too potent for overwatch.

Should vehicles be immune? I'm leaning towards a yes on that.

I would say 'closest unit' for the Convex fire, but allow the Concave fire to be targeted.

I would make it an item that can be activated in any of your Shooting Phases, but not classify it as a ranged weapon, thus removing Overwatch potential.

And yes, I would tack on a 'non-Vehicle units' or 'may not target Vehicles'.

Probably best to allow it to ignore vehicles for target selection then.

I think you're right about making concave able to pick out targets. It gives us a way to deal with characters hiding in blobs.

So points wise... maybe 25-30? Expensive, but not unreasonably so.

I'd say 20-25, it's roughly as powerful as a Smite with a little bit less counter-play and a touch more reliability.

How much does a model pay for the privilege of being a ML1 Psyker? about 25 points, this usually comes with having Smite and 1 other slightly more versatile power thrown on top and the ability to attempt a Deny on one of your opponent's powers.

So I'd say equal cost/ a touch below that of a ML1 Psyker's Psyker-iness.

Sounds reasonable.

IMO gruesome trophies is far more fluffy. We don't need new stuff we need what we lost to come back.

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

IMO gruesome trophies is far more fluffy.  We don't need new stuff we need what we lost to come back.

Is it too much to ask for both? Space Marines are getting new stuff like candy this edition, is it too much to ask for us to get SOMETHING?

New stuff is fine as long as it makes sense to the fluff. Like Ulthwe get 6++ now even for vehicles and this is a good example of WTF for because it makes no sense and for me it spoils things. I would hate that to happen to DE.