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 1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?"

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fenrisnorth
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cwoody0
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PostSubject: 1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?"   1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?" I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 27 2011, 05:42

I've played the Dark Eldar from pretty much the day the new codex came out. I've won considerably more games than I've lost.
I have a hard time wrapping my head around what people refer to as "cheese" in an army list. I desperately want to not be that guy that everyone hates playing against because his army is no fun.
However, I've heard comments from opponents occasionally stating that may be the case.
So, I present to you, oh Dark City, the army list I've been playing with lately. Would this list be considered overpowered? Or do I win because I'm good with the Dark Eldar?
tl;dr -- I don't want to play a cheesy army, does this list look fun to play against or overpowered and jerkish?

HQ-
Succubus - Agonizer

Elite-
5x Kalabite Trueborn - 4x Blasters, Splinter Cannon, Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon & Night Shields
5x Kalabite Trueborn - 4x Blasters, Splinter Cannon, Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon & Night Shields
5x Incubi - Klaivex w/ Onslaught, Raider w/ Enhanced Aethersails & Flickerfield (Succubus goes here)

Heavy-
Razorwing - 4x Monoscythe Missiles, Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield

Troop-
10x Kabalite Warriors - Sybarite, Splinter Cannon, Raider w/ Splinter Racks, Night Shields, Flickerfield
10x Kabalite Warriors - Sybarite, Splinter Cannon, Raider w/ Splinter Racks, Night Shields, Flickerfield
10x Wyches - Hekatrix w/ Agonizer, 2x Hydra Gauntlets, Raider w/ Enhanced Aethersails & Flickerfield


The idea is that I've got nothing but vehicles on the table. Turn 1 I decide which enemy unit I don't want on the table any more and unload the Razorwing at it. Then the Trueborn in Venoms fly around blowing up vehicles, the Warriors in Raiders fly around shooting infantry to death, then once I've got a good enough target I charge it w/ the Wyches or the Incubi. The "shooting" vehicles (w/ trueborn & warriors) have the Night Shields to make them harder to shoot back at.
I've gotten one draw with this list, and all the rest of the games have been wins. I don't remember how many.
I've stopped using the Archon w/ Soul Trap & Huskblade because I feel he's too cheesy. Do I have to stop using all this other stuff, too?
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fenrisnorth
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?"   1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?" I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 27 2011, 05:58

People tend to cry cheese when theycan't figure out how to beat something by just brute forcing it. I wouldn't worry about it. I would only worry when even good tactics can't beat your army.

A.K.A. The level of force against which no strategy can produce a meaningful victory,

I've never seen a DE force I'd consider cheese, because it just takes a little hitch to stop most DE lists in their tracks.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?"   1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?" I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 27 2011, 07:24

As far as pure optimization of a list - yours is not. It's in a vague vein of trying to be competitive, but there are "better/cheesier" lists out there, easy.

As far as how to gauge "cheese" I would say to depends on your opponent's lists as much/more than your own. A serious question - do you steamroll the opponent every time? If the answer is 'yes' then ask youself 'why?' If your opponent is fielding a list that is incapable of dealing with yours, then it doesn't matter if your list is cheesy in the grand scheme of the game - it will be cheesy for the opponent. The solution at that point is one of three;

1. Help educate the opponent and try to teach him why his list isn't working, talk him through your thoughts of why your list does too well versus his and offer thoughts on what might help counter it. If he improves his list he'll stand a better chance of winning and your list will be less cheesy.

2. Downgrade your list. If he refuses to play mech or does some sort of other strange self imposed handicap - meet him half way. Start running a WWP list, or a list with units that you think are fun but not as competitive. Again, the goal is list parity.

3. Find new and "better" opponents to play who will be skilled enough to not feel intimidated by your list design.

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notts
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?"   1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?" I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 27 2011, 13:20

doesn't look cheesy to me.

DE cheese is venom spam, and min/maxing.

your trueborn have a splinter cannon, and 2 more men than "optimised"

Furthermore, splinter racks and sybarites are not optimised upgrades, neither is the klaivex.

You could probably fairly easily trim some fat from your list and add another venom unit.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?"   1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?" I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 27 2011, 16:08

+1 for what has been said. Your list is far from optimized

Now as said "cheese" is relative. Personally I hate the term because it is a term used by those that do not want to either A: figure out how to be a list, or B: cant handle losing. I would try and help your opponents figure out what they are doing wrong, if they are taking say... one or two AT platforms (wheither it be a tank or not) and you are running all tanks, there is going to be a problem for them.

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?"   1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?" I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 27 2011, 16:17

Thor665 wrote:
As far as pure optimization of a list - yours is not. It's in a vague vein of trying to be competitive, but there are "better/cheesier" lists out there, easy.

As far as how to gauge "cheese" I would say to depends on your opponent's lists as much/more than your own. A serious question - do you steamroll the opponent every time? If the answer is 'yes' then ask youself 'why?' If your opponent is fielding a list that is incapable of dealing with yours, then it doesn't matter if your list is cheesy in the grand scheme of the game - it will be cheesy for the opponent. The solution at that point is one of three;

1. Help educate the opponent and try to teach him why his list isn't working, talk him through your thoughts of why your list does too well versus his and offer thoughts on what might help counter it. If he improves his list he'll stand a better chance of winning and your list will be less cheesy.

2. Downgrade your list. If he refuses to play mech or does some sort of other strange self imposed handicap - meet him half way. Start running a WWP list, or a list with units that you think are fun but not as competitive. Again, the goal is list parity.

3. Find new and "better" opponents to play who will be skilled enough to not feel intimidated by your list design.

+1 or 2 to the three items above. Don't see what's so cheesy about the list.

I always try to find the toughest opponents that I can find and don't mind playing against competitive lists. If I find that I'm winning more than half of my games I look for new opponents.If I win/lose/draw against the majority of my opponents I feel that the competition is just right.
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?"   1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?" I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 27 2011, 20:52

fenrisnorth wrote:
I've never seen a DE force I'd consider cheese, because it just takes a little hitch to stop most DE lists in their tracks.

Agreed... I've always said "if you shoot at me I'll die." when I feel like my opponents are thinking I'm "that guy."

So how about this: what would be considered cheese?

notts wrote:
DE cheese is venom spam, and min/maxing.
2x venoms isn't spamming? how many venoms do you need to make it spam? 3? 4? 3 would be the max if I've got trueborn in them.
-As I previously mentioned, I considered the Archon w/ 2++ save, combat drugs, huskblade and soul trap to be cheese so I've stopped using him. Sure if the opponent gets a single S6 hit off on him and I roll a 1 on my save he'll get vaporized, but so long as he's in a transport and then charges as soon as he's on the table he's going to be killing everything he comes in to contact with. Everyone complained. So he's been shelved.
-Is the Razorwing cheese? It can shoot 4x S6 large blasts in a single turn and essentially dust any single infantry target. It's the "I don't want that unit on the table any more" button.

I always get self conscious about winning because historically speaking I've never been very good at strategy-type games. So when I DO win, especially in the amount I have since I've began playing with the Dark Eldar nearly a year ago, I second guess myself and assume I must be playing unfairly. Does anyone else feel that way about the Dark Eldar?
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notts
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?"   1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?" I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 27 2011, 21:05

The razorwing is good, but fragile.
And if you are using one, it means you aren't using 3 ravagers.

This is a pretty good example of a cheesy DE list. 5 venoms, minimum unit sizes, 3 ravagers.

HQ

Haemonculus w/liquifier 60

Elite

4 Trueborn w/blasters in venom w/cannon and night shields 183

4 Trueborn w/blasters in venom w/cannon and night shields 183

Troops

3 Wracks in Venom w/cannon and nightshields 105

3 Wracks in Venom w/cannon and nightshields 105

5 Kabalite Warriors w/blaster in Venom w/cannon and night shields 135

5 Kabalite Warriors w/blaster in Raider w/shock prow, enhanced Aethersail, flicker and night shields 150

7 Wyches w/haywires hekatrix w/agoniser in Raider w/shock prow, enhanced Aethersail, flicker and night shields 204

Heavy

Ravager w/ 3 DL flicker and night shields 125

Ravager w/ 3 DL flicker and night shields 125

Ravager w/ 3 Dissies flicker and night shields 125
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?"   1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?" I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 27 2011, 21:54

'Spam' varies depending on what you're spamming. 1 Longfang squad isn't spam. 2 might be. 3 definitely is.

COnversely - probably you need 4+ of a Troop slot to be spamming it.

In a generic sense, I would probably say 5+ of a given DE transport counts as spam of that transport. At 1500 I usually field around 11 skimmers, and I'd say that's spam. You're fielding 7 which is in a gray zone, but really isn't considering what vehicles they are and how you equipped them.

Though I'll again note - a *list* is not cheesy except when compared to *other lists*. It doesn't matter what I think of as cheese because my play environment is probably different than yours - if your opponent thinks it's cheese than the problem is a combination of your list and his ability as a list builder and tactician to deal with it. There is no generic cheese/not cheese standard.

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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?"   1500 pts mechanized - would this list be considered "cheese?" I_icon_minitime

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