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 Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?

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dumpeal
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 16 2017, 16:47

Everything is in the title. Who should we take to lead our wyches?
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 16 2017, 16:51

I've gone with succubi solely because they are cheaper and I think they are effective

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 16 2017, 17:02

@RedRegicide wrote:
I've gone with succubi solely because they are cheaper and I think they are effective

Pretty much this.

The Archon is also cheaper and has more attacks.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 16 2017, 21:32

If I were to take Lilith I would juse take a Solitaire. They are really good

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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 16 2017, 23:56

@colinsherlow wrote:
If I were to take Lilith I would juse take a Solitaire. They are really good

I was really hoping they would make Lilith more like a Solitaire. She seems horribly underwhelming as is - nothing like the fluff.

As to the OP I definitely think succubus is better point for point.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 17 2017, 16:44

So, let's see:

A regular Succubus gets 4 S5 attacks that initially hit on 3s, and then his on 2s from turn 3 onwards (rerolling 1s in both cases).

Meanwhile, Lelith gets either 5 S3 AP-4 attacks or 4 S3 AP-1 D2 attacks. Plus 2 extra S3 AP- D1 attacks. Woot. She hits on 2s and also gets to reroll 1s.

They confer the same buff to Wych units.

A normal Succubus has a 4++ save, Lelith has a 3++ save. Against Characters, Lelith can reroll all failed to-wound rolls.

Lelith is almost twice the price of a regular Succubus.


Against non-characters, I really don't see the appeal of Lelith at all. She doesn't provide any additional buffs and her damage output is pitiful. The only thing she brings is a slightly better save but given her low toughness I can't see it helping much (certainly not enough to justify the increase in cost).

Against characters, she at least gets rerolls to wound. Unfortunately, she has to choose between a weapon that's good against armour and a weapon that's poor against armour but which does 2 damage. Unless you're facing a Farseer you're going to want AP *and* damage. What's more, even with the +1 strength from Combat Drugs, the rerolls to wound bring her damage up to what you'd expect from a melee HQ in the first place.

So to summarise:
- She has terrible damage output against non-characters (and that's if you give her one of the most useful combat drugs - her damage is abysmal without it).
- She's hampered against characters because she's basically holding two halves of a competent weapon and can only use one half at a time.
- She has a slightly better save than the succubus.

I don't think she brings nearly enough over a regular succubus.


Know what's really depressing though? This is probably one of her better incarnations. Just let that sink in.
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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 17 2017, 17:13

@The Shredder wrote:

Lelith is almost twice the price of a regular Succubus.



Know what's really depressing though? This is probably one of her better incarnations. Just let that sink in.

Amen

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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 17 2017, 18:21

Don't forget the succubus can also take a blast pistol for an extra s8 attack in combat
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 17 2017, 19:22

@Kehmor wrote:
Don't forget the succubus can also take a blast pistol for an extra s8 attack in combat

Is there a rule that let's you fire pistols in combat? As in the actual fight phase.
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Sslyth
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 17 2017, 21:29

@The Shredder wrote:
@Kehmor wrote:
Don't forget the succubus can also take a blast pistol for an extra s8 attack in combat

Is there a rule that let's you fire pistols in combat? As in the actual fight phase.

Nope, it still fires in the shooting phase.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 17 2017, 22:04

@Sslyth wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@Kehmor wrote:
Don't forget the succubus can also take a blast pistol for an extra s8 attack in combat

Is there a rule that let's you fire pistols in combat? As in the actual fight phase.

Nope, it still fires in the shooting phase.

Ah, that's a shame. I was hoping that I'd missed a rule somewhere.
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Kehmor
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 17 2017, 22:18

Yeah, I suppose you only get it on your turn so I should have said half a strength 8 attack
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 18 2017, 07:32

I've tried Lelith twice, but the worst thing with her is that she will steal one of the best Drugs we have.

I tried her at S3 but she doesn't work pretty well. Plus, 1 and 2 still exist. Yeah a Succubus seems the best way to run. I like run those girls in a Raider with 9 Hellions inside (this guys are crazy good now!)
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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 18 2017, 11:25

Take the Succubus, use Lelith as count-as Solitaire

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 18 2017, 11:27

@mightydoughnut wrote:
Take the Succubus, use Lelith as count-as Solitaire

This. The Solitaire's rules really would have been perfect for Lelith.
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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 18 2017, 11:42

This. The Solitaire's rules really would have been perfect for Lelith.

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Daspien
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 20 2017, 13:14

@Cerve wrote:
I've tried Lelith twice, but the worst thing with her is that she will steal one of the best Drugs we have.

I tried her at S3 but she doesn't work pretty well. Plus, 1 and 2 still exist. Yeah a Succubus seems the best way to run. I like run those girls in a Raider with 9 Hellions inside (this guys are crazy good now!)

Can you embark the hellions in a raider???
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 20 2017, 13:22

Strangely, yes. They are Drukhari Infantry units and nothing in their keywords or the special rules for the Raider prevent them from embarking.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 20 2017, 15:04

@Daspien wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
I've tried Lelith twice, but the worst thing with her is that she will steal one of the best Drugs we have.

I tried her at S3 but she doesn't work pretty well. Plus, 1 and 2 still exist. Yeah a Succubus seems the best way to run. I like run those girls in a Raider with 9 Hellions inside (this guys are crazy good now!)

Can you embark the hellions in a raider???


Actually, a lot of Trasport can carry Infantry and Faction keyword units. So it's a general thing.

I gues marines can embark Assault Squads into their Rhino as well (Chaos too).
"Fly" has no rule about that.

But for US...jeez! Hellions are amazing. You can run 5 of them with Agonizer into a Venom, shoot 22 poisoned shots at 34" or deploy in 3"+14"move+2D6 assault (usually with rerolls). So you can add the melee attacks over those 22 shots as well: it is a pretty nice punch agains any light infantry (Orks Boys? Genestealers? etc..).
I run 9 of them with a Succubus: disembark, shoot, charge an infantry. Shred it, then try to block it in CC thanks to the "No retreat" Succubus rule. It helps Hellions the get cover in melee against any shooting unit in the next turn.

I love those guys, embarked they become amazing!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better?   Succubus vs Lelith. Who's better? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 20 2017, 23:18

Yes you can. literally nothing says you cant where other vehicles like Wave Serpents or Rhinos says you cant.

Hellions in a Raider is a thing Very Happy

As for Lilith and Solitaire thats what im doing, I have a Solitaire for my Quins and i have 3 Lilith Models,s o i'm converting 1 to a Solitaire.

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