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 Can you have 1+ WS?

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Duke Daedric
Hellion
Duke Daedric

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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 06 2017, 11:14

Sorry if this has been already addresed but if I am reading this correctly the Archon from turn 3 onwards allways hits.

Is this true?
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 06 2017, 11:16

A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply.

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Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 06 2017, 12:02

Jeah but the question is if you have ws 1+ (not ws2+ with a +1) can you then not say you do not have to roll anymore?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 06 2017, 12:13

No, because step 1 is resolving attacks is "Make Hit Roll", not "Look at WS and see if you need to roll a dice"

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Barrywise
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 04 2017, 00:52

Sorry, going to slightly Necro this thread, because of a slight epiphany I didn't realize. Maybe y'all did and then I'll feel silly.

The wording for Brides of Death says that we "can" reroll failed hits, meaning that we have the choice to reroll dice or leave as is.

This means that units that have Power from Pain and a reroll from nearby HQ's (Lhameans+Archons or Hellions w/ Succubus) can choose to reroll their misses in close combat. This is important from turn 3 onward where we can add a +1 modifier to dice after rerolls have occurred. You should choose to keep any 2's that you roll (unless a 6 is something special) and reroll 1's.

From turn 3 onward, Succubi give wych cult units a 2+ reroll to hit. That's the insane HQ synergy that we've been looking for. For a mostly 3+ or 66% CC hit army, the Succubus reroll increases it to 88% and the Power from Pain further raises that to 97.2%. Now That's Spicy. Now if only we could fix our Strength problems...

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 04 2017, 09:40

Me likey like.

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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 04 2017, 10:01

Oh schnaps! I need to get my succubus kitbash project back on track.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 04 2017, 10:08

The Succubus only allows you to re-roll 1's anyway though.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 04 2017, 13:06

I don't see what's the special trick here. From turn 3 you hit on 2+. Succubus allows to reroll 1's. Yay. Would be even better if they had some way to wound, don't you think ?

That's not great unit synergy. That's unit synergy. If you're looking for great unit synergy, i might suggest you to advance to the "Harlequin Troupe Master" part of the Index.

I find it kinda sad that we are now forced to think that "rerolling 1's to hit in CC for 1/3 of the army" is a great aura. It's a suckish aura. Half the armies in the game have "Rerolling 1's to hit for the entire army, in range AND cc". The other armies have better auras.

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Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 04 2017, 13:15

@Mppqlmd wrote:
I find it kinda sad that we are now forced to think that "rerolling 1's to hit in CC for 1/3 of the army" is a great aura. It's a suckish aura. Half the armies in the game have "Rerolling 1's to hit for the entire army, in range AND cc". The other armies have better auras.

That is not completely true.
Tyranids have it even worse. We at least buff multiple units with most of our HQ. They have 4 HQ choices that each buff 1 unit each. And only one named HQ that can buff any unit (but only 1 unit a turn, although it is one of the better buffs).
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 04 2017, 13:45

- Synapses trumps our 4th turn moral immunity in every way.
- They have a psychic power to run and charge.
- Special ability on the Swarmlord, they can move (and advance) twice a turn. Genestealers can move 16+2d6, then charge. Absolutly normal.
- +1 to hit in CC with Carnifexes. Comparable with the succubus. Except Carnifexes struggle to hit, and not to wound. So the Old One Eye is helping them with what they normally fail to do. Wyches do not struggle to hit, they struggle to WOUND, but the succubus is helping them to do something they already do easily.
- Broodlord : +1 to hit to genestealers. Comparable with the Succubus, except Genestealers can charge at first turn (without even deepstriking), and have S4 AP-1, with rending. So a lot better in terms of value.
- Tyrannid prime : +1 to hit Range and CC, on models that have access to heavy elite weaponry ? I would enjoy having a +1 to hit aura for Trueborns Smile
- Tervigon aura : not great, but the Tervigon can create 10 models per turn, so it's already a great value in itself.
- Trygon prime : not a HQ, but he has a Webway Portal. And we don't.

We have the Haemy aura (great, but certainly not broken), the Chronos aura (quite nice), and the Archon aura (so broken).
So they not only have more options for force multiplying, they are also all better than ours.
And they have a codex coming out. We don't.
So they certainly don't have it worse.

It's better to buff 1 unit really well than to give a useless buff to a large part of your army.
That's why Imperial Orders are so good. You can double the offensive power of only 1 unit ? Create units of 50 men, and you become unstoppable.

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 05 2017, 01:30

Archon aura = broken? The cultural meaning of broken has twisted the word broken to mean good/overpowered and game breaking, I'm assuming you mean that its bad?

Seriously though, Dark Eldar forum, our army is unique, who cares what other armies have, we have a lot to work with ourselves, lets aim to maximize what we have rather than covet what other armies have. We're not Orks.

I do agree that buffing a killy unit is really good. Here's an example:

Talos after turn 3 hits on a 2+ and with a cronos nearby gets that juicy 2+ rerollable to wound against T3 targets. That's nice.

Hellions after turn 3 hit on a 2+, rerollable with Succubus nearby, With +1S drug, wounding SM on a 3+, rerolling half of your failed wounds with Cronos nearby. For each attack there's 97.2% chance of hit , 75.6% chance of wounds. after armor save 25.2% chance. Each Hellion has 2 attacks, that's 1/2 a chance of each hellion killing a SM. Damage 2 though, Against Primaris they've just earned their points back in a single round. Against a T8 Vehicle, with all the buffs, 10 hellions have the potential for 6.5 wounds or 13 damage before armor saves, doing a decent chunk against anything T9 or below. Jack of all Trades sure, but boost them and you're looking at a one unit army.

Incubi, Turn 3, in range of Cronos, 83% chance to hit, 65% chance to wound, after armor saves, each Incubi attack has a 54% chance to kill a Space Marine. A full squad of 10 can do 12.5 wounds to SM, put em against a 10 man squad of Primaris, or a 20 man stack of warriors. Agony practically prints itself.




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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 05 2017, 05:47

Quote :
We're not Orks.
Well some of us are. But in order to understand what we can hope to get, it's very useful and reasonnable to see what others have. This game is a system, it doesn't make any sense to restrain our view to our own army. One must look at the big picture before he can make statements about what could be or couldn't be done for an army.

The problem with your examples of "buffing killy units" is that the Auras change little in your calculations.
Hellions damage output is only buffed by 13% by the succubus. Not a lot. The fact that they deal damage is intriseque to their profile, the succubus adds almost nothing. Same for the Taloi and incubi : they have great stats, but rerolling 1's is nothing special at all, and shouldn't be praised.

Compare that with Harlies, that get a reroll to wound (all missed) aura and a -1 to be wounded aura.
Compare that with CW that get reroll to hit at range (all missed) buff and Doom spell...
I can't see how one could be satisfied with the poor synergy our HQs currently have.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 05 2017, 07:52

@ Mppqlmd

I completely agree we are not great in the buffing squad.
But you said before that other armies have: "Half the armies in the game have "Rerolling 1's to hit for the entire army, in range AND cc". The other armies have better auras."

The tyranids do not. they have 1 special character with a good buff and good psychic powers (not an aura) and they ignore morale (which is not really a problem for us anyway, which is one of the reasons why we hate the archon buff as much).

The aura's they have besides the hive mind ignore morale (and with a serious drawback attached to that one, they effectively must keep shooting units within a few inches of a hyve node or they can only target the closest enemy, for their melee not always a problem, for their ranged it is huge)

+1 to hit in CC with Carnifexes. Comparable with the succubus. Except Carnifexes struggle to hit, and not to wound. So the Old One Eye is helping them with what they normally fail to do. Wyches do not struggle to hit, they struggle to WOUND, but the succubus is helping them to do something they already do easily.
I agree it is quite nice, but still only 1 unit to buff. So you pay for 1 guy, who can be targetted, has to be in melee to buff similar units. The one reason why he is viable is because he is worth the price tag even if he did not buff the carnifexes.
- Broodlord : +1 to hit to genestealers. Comparable with the Succubus, except Genestealers can charge at first turn (without even deepstriking), and have S4 AP-1, with rending. So a lot better in terms of value.
The broodlord gives +1 to hit. Not bad, again mainly because the broodlord would be quite nice without the bonus. You need to buff 53.3 genestealers to make his worth in the buff (to deal the same amount of damage as just having more genestealers.

- Tyrannid prime : +1 to hit Range and CC, on models that have access to heavy elite weaponry ? I would enjoy having a +1 to hit aura for Trueborns Smile
Again 1 guy who will buff 1 unit, which in this case is rarely worth it, because the unit he buffs is overpriced, does not also need his hyve mind, and you can have another squad of them instead, and he only buffs their damage output by around 25% so again you must invest around 400 points on 1 unit type (only in this case a bad unit) to break even in the offensive department.

No, tyranids are not a bad army, and they have some nice things. But their aura's are worse then ours. The thing is, they also have some nice things (for instance their special characters are suddenly seen everywhere since they are good and have a powerfull gimmick). And we miss the other fluffy options as well. But tell a nid player he can get +1 t aura for a lot of his army (the thoughest of his troops, the thoughest of his elites, half his heavy support and 2 other units (they don't really have transports). So we got 1 guy who now buffs all those units: genestealers (wracks), warriors (grots), carnifexes (talos), and still has some other units that get a buff.

So the problem is not just that we only buff 1/3 of our army. That is not the problem, The problem is that our HQ are sucky on their own, and the price is then just the buff, but we pay to much for buffs that are not good. While the nids, have worse (or at least even more specific) aura's they get it on a few units that are quite ok, even if they would not have had the aura.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 05 2017, 09:23

The Succubus' buff is pretty bad. It takes a Wych from 0.28 wounds against MEQ to 0.32. So basically, for every 25 Wyches you can get within range of her buff she causes one extra MEQ casualty. That's barely even noticeable!

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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 05 2017, 09:46

@Count Adhemar wrote:
The Succubus' buff is pretty bad. It takes a Wych from 0.28 wounds against MEQ to 0.32. So basically, for every 25 Wyches you can get within range of her buff she causes one extra MEQ casualty. That's barely even noticeable!
A large part of that is that the wyches suck. she has roughly a 14% damage increase. Which is not great, but also not nothing if the wych damage was ok.

I completely agree, that right now the buff is weak.
Only I think for the succubus this should not be a problem. The problem is that we pay premium points for a sucky buff.
A succubus should be a melee character that kills stuff, instead of the HQ with the least attacks.
She should be similar to the solidair, double her attacks and give her a small price increase.
The solidair can move trough units, is faster, has a slightly better ward save, can move in and out of combat at will and can increase his speed and attacks once per game.
The succubus has PfP, drugs and buffs nearby witch cult units a tiny bit. Probably the Solidair would still be slightly better, so we should be just below the solidair in price with those 8 attacks. My problem is not that her buff is bad, I kinda like it. But it should be priced as a weak buff since that is what it is. And right now she is to expensive for what she brings.

Only the Archon really needs a different aura I think.

The heamy aura is ok. Is it perfect, no, but I think it is fluffy and from what I have seen works quite ok on the tabletop (even if i don't play coven myself). It is more that some coven units need a boost themselves than that they need a better aura.
The succubus should be about killing stuff herself, not about making wyches suddenly twice as good. The cult units should just be better themselves.

The archon needs a better aura. Even though his kabal units are actually quite ok XD
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Duke Daedric
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 05 2017, 10:06

I only ever use Archon with his court and his aura (court ability) is quite nice.
Usually I field 2 Archons with 3 Sslyth each, I'm 5 games into 8th edition and have not lost a single Archon yet.

Spoken from a position of Sslyth enthusiast. Twisted Evil
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Can you have 1+ WS? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 05 2017, 12:24

Quote :
The tyranids do not.
Sorry, but i'll stand my point : they do.
First, they have more different auras (i didn't even mention the Venomtrope in my list) than we do. Wayyy more.
Secondly, their auras ability are unit specific, but they are doing something. +1 to hit on Tyrannid Warriors is buffing their ability by 38% both in CC and at range (and again, they have access to elite weaponry). This buff also comes on a HQ that, while costy, is very powerful on his own.

Our Succubus is suckish in combat, only buffs CC, and buffs it by 13%. The fact that she buffs 3 units instead of 1 is irrelevant : buffing 1 unit type significantly is vastly better than throwing a useless buff to 3 units type (2 of which are barely playable anyway).

Let's also note that Auras are not the only synergy/force multipliers in the game. Giving a unit double movement phase is awesome sauce. Allowing it to charge and advance in the same turn is awesome sauce. The CW "Doom" power is not an aura, but it's a great HQ ability.

So there is no reason to state that Tyrannids have it worse than us. They certainly are worse than IG or CW in terms of force multiplying, but they can't be worse than us, because we practically have nothing. They got stuff that, while not ideal, is working.

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