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 rant about GW and play testers

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lcfr
PartZebra
merse24
Jimsolo
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Mppqlmd
The Strange Dark One
FuelDrop
Ikol
zergavas
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The Shredder
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Mppqlmd
Incubi
Mppqlmd


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 25 2017, 12:49

The thing i am really hoping for is that the Shardnet will grant +1 to the roll-off (not my idea to begin with).
And i am spamming that wish on every threat in hope that someone from GW will see it and see how great that would be.

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FuelDrop
Hekatrix
FuelDrop


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 25 2017, 12:54

Shardnet could also boost dodge. or grant dodge rerolls. Anything!
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Jim_the_archon
Hellion
Jim_the_archon


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 25 2017, 13:42

In the words of one my friends who's a statistician. Everything has a 50% chance it either happens or it doesn't :-P
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Barrywise
Wych
Barrywise


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 25 2017, 14:10

Wait Fuel Drop, hit me if I'm crazy, did you just say that the unit tied in CC won't be able to fire their pistols if they fail to get away? Because technically they "fell back" ?

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 25 2017, 14:17

Barrywise wrote:
Wait Fuel Drop, hit me if I'm crazy, did you just say that the unit tied in CC won't be able to fire their pistols if they fail to get away? Because technically they "fell back" ?

No, the unit doesn't fall back unless it wins the roll off.

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rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
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Barrywise
Wych
Barrywise


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 25 2017, 14:18

D'oh, shazbot!

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TheBaconPope
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 25 2017, 15:29

It still astounds me the way the designed Wyches this edition. They made a melee centered unit that has little survivability until they get into combat. All well and good, nothing wrong with a choppy unit being vulnerable to guns. Then they made it so pistols could be fired in melee. Again, all good, it helps us too, right? Then they made it so the unit whose entire strategy relies on getting into melee so a bolter that looks at them the wrong way doesn't cause them to automatically explode have that same strategy negated by the guns that can now be fired in melee. Then they further clarified that this interpretation was not only correct, but evidently intended. So you're left with a tarpit that suffers 1.5 casualties a turn from five Tac Marines without even factoring in close combat.

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The Red King
Hekatrix
The Red King


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 25 2017, 15:34

I mean I've had a lot of success with them this edition but I don't charge tacticals. They tarpit dreads and demon princes and the like. Maulerfiends.

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Barrywise
Wych
Barrywise


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 25 2017, 15:58

High strength, low attack. Makes sense when you have a 4+ invuln for 10pts

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The Shredder
Trueborn
The Shredder


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 25 2017, 16:28

TheBaconPope wrote:
It still astounds me the way the designed Wyches this edition. They made a melee centered unit that has little survivability until they get into combat. All well and good, nothing wrong with a choppy unit being vulnerable to guns. Then they made it so pistols could be fired in melee. Again, all good, it helps us too, right? Then they made it so the unit whose entire strategy relies on getting into melee so a bolter that looks at them the wrong way doesn't cause them to automatically explode have that same strategy negated by the guns that can now be fired in melee. Then they further clarified that this interpretation was not only correct, but evidently intended. So you're left with a tarpit that suffers 1.5 casualties a turn from five Tac Marines without even factoring in close combat.

I know it wasn't the core of your argument, but the design of pistols in this edition seems really weird to me.

It's as if they were designed for a different game, one in which charges happen before shooting.

As it is, I have only ever encountered the following scenarios with pistols:

1) Attacker has a pistol. The attacker shoots the pistol before charging and then charges. If the unit survives into the enemy turn, it immediately falls back. If the pistol unit is still alive in the subsequent turn, it gets no extra use out of the pistol rule.

2) Defender has a pistol. The defending model/unit is charged in the enemy turn and survives. In its turn, it falls back in the movement phase (because the enemy wasn't stupid enough to charge a unit that they couldn't beat in combat) and gets no use out of its pistol rule.

It really seems like you should be able to shoot them in the fight phase, in place of one of your melee attacks. The current rule just seems completely pointless 99.9% of the time.
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Barrywise
Wych
Barrywise


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 25 2017, 17:52

Im still in love with the fluff idea of wyches + Succubus fighting marines and a captain. After 2 rounds it's just the captain with 1 hp against the surviving wyches and Succubus. He's on his last legs and any entertainment he might've given has been spent. The last thing they can enjoy is his look of despair as he realizes he won't get an honorable death as the Succubus and wyches pull out their pistols and finish him off, firing squad style.

Tabletop though, they're now left out in the open, I hope you've tied everything else down.

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TeenageAngst
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 05:25

This is just an aside but I hate the fact that you're almost obligated to bring transports for units now, especially if you want them in close combat. The transports have to eat the overwatch, the transports keep shooting units alive while they gun things down, the transports are basically a 100+ point tax you have to pay per unit to not get shot off the board. I miss being able to use a Shadowseer to keep things from getting shot and an Archon with a Shadowfield to escort some Grotesques, rather than having to dish out 115 points for a Raider.

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Last edited by TeenageAngst on Sat Jul 29 2017, 07:53; edited 1 time in total
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Barrywise
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 07:26

You could just bring 200 pts of wyches instead of 100 pts wyches, 100 pts raider right? They wouldn't have as much range of mobility but they could certainly cover more of the board.

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TeenageAngst
Incubi
TeenageAngst


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 07:30

The issue is they die too quickly. We used to have multiple ways of delivering units where they needed to be that added tactical depth. Webway portals, psychic powers from allied Harlequins or Eldar, reserves, independent characters added to squads, etc. Now, with the exception of Scourges anyway, we have just one: transports.

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The Shredder
Trueborn
The Shredder


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 09:08

TeenageAngst wrote:
This is just an aside but I hate the fact that you're almost obligated to bring transports for units now, especially if you want them in close combat. The transports have to eat the overwatch, the transports keep shooting units alive while they gun things down, the transports are basically a 100+ point tax you have to pay per unit to not get shot off the board. I miss being able to use a Shadowseer to keep things from getting shot and an Archon with a Shadowfield to escort some Grotesques, rather than having to dish out 115 points for a Raider.

Forgive me but how has 8th caused this?

Bringing transports has been mandatory for DE since at least 5th.
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Mppqlmd
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 10:55

10 kabs with a raider is more or less the price it was in the last edition.
It's the 5 kabs with Venom that exploded in price.
Taking transports is the most (only ?) fluffy way to play DE IMO. How do you plan a raiding operation in space without your ships ?

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Ikol
Wych
Ikol


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 12:46

I think the complaint is less "Boohoo! Now we have to take transports!"

And more "They took away all of our other options, reducing the depth of the gameplay. The fact that transports were the only thing that wasn't taken away is a side note."

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The Shredder
Trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 13:00

Ikol wrote:
I think the complaint is less "Boohoo!  Now we have to take transports!"

And more "They took away all of our other options, reducing the depth of the gameplay.  The fact that transports were the only thing that wasn't taken away is a side note."

Ah, okay. That makes more sense (though I still think this was a problem long before 8th).

I think the issue is that we're supposed to be a fast army, yet we have a ton of units (including many core units) that have no mobility options beyond transports.

For example, not a single one of our HQ choices has any mobility beyond a transport. We don't even have a fast footslogging HQ like the Solitaire.

The same goes for our Troops. We have one Wych option, one Kabalite option and one Coven option. None of them have any mobility beyond a transport. Why not let us, for example, have Hellions as troops? Or a unit between Scourges and Kabalites (flying but without Ghostplate and only able to take 1-2 special/heavy weapons).

And it's the same with our Elites. Every single unit is reliant on taking a transport for its mobility.

My Necrons have more mobility in their HQ and Elite slots than DE do. Hell, my Imperial Guard have more mobile Elites.

Once again, I dispute the idea that we are a fast army. We are an army with 2 fast transports and 1 fast gunship. That's about it.
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Ikol
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 13:36

The Shredder wrote:
I dispute the idea that we are a fast army. We are an army with 2 fast transports and 1 fast gunship. That's about it.

Nail on the head, my friend.

Nail on the head.

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”Woe to our enemies.  We'll tear them apart regardless.” ~Barrywise
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FuelDrop
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 14:04

And our fast transports and gunship are not uniquely fast, being slower than the craftworld equivalent. They are also at best moderately armed, with the transports outgunning a loyalist rhino but little else while the gunship lacks the oomph of many similar vehicles (the new Repulsor for the space marines comes to mind...).
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The Shredder
Trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 14:20

FuelDrop wrote:
And our fast transports and gunship are not uniquely fast, being slower than the craftworld equivalent. They are also at best moderately armed, with the transports outgunning a loyalist rhino but little else while the gunship lacks the oomph of many similar vehicles (the new Repulsor for the space marines comes to mind...).

I'd say that we've also been hit far harder than most with the drastic increases in transport costs, as few (if any) races are as reliant on transports as us.
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Mppqlmd
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 15:09

What makes us shine is the "open topped" rule. Most factions have lost it in 8th edition (and it makes my Necron buddy super salty to see that Repair Barges are no longer open topped). Meaning : our transports aren't a delivery system (at least for kabalites). They are a way of life. If they can spend the entire game in a Raider, my Kabalites will. Most factions don't have that.

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CptMetal
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 15:34

We can win without putting a single boot to the ground.
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Mppqlmd
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 15:39

Exactly.
But if you want to play anything else than Kabalites, Raiders, Venoms, planes and Ravagers/Reapers, then you have to cope with taxed transports, and that sucks.
Our index is clearly written with the Kabalite Raider/venom rush playstyle in mind. It suits me well, but i can understand that anyone wanting to play something different finds it infuriating.

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The Shredder
Trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 15 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 29 2017, 15:40

Mppqlmd wrote:
What makes us shine is the "open topped" rule. Most factions have lost it in 8th edition (and it makes my Necron buddy super salty to see that Repair Barges are no longer open topped). Meaning : our transports aren't a delivery system (at least for kabalites). They are a way of life. If they can spend the entire game in a Raider, my Kabalites will. Most factions don't have that.

IMO there are 3 issues with that:

1) It still doesn't help if you want to do anything besides sticking all your units in transports. I mean, if I want to put my Archon with a Scourge squad then I couldn't give the least bit of a damn about the open-topped rule on our vehicles. Wink

2) Whilst it's a nice rule in theory, we don't have many units that can make good use out of it.
- Trueborn are certainly good, but I'd argue that they're the only unit we have that really fulfils that role.
- Our basic warriors are okay but their shooting is far from impressive (at the very least, I'm uncomfortable paying for a transport that costs about twice as much as they do). To avoid any argument, let's say they're good, too.
- Mandrakes also have good shooting, though it could be argued that taking them in a transport is wasting several of their abilities. But, again, for the sake of argument let's just say they're good in this role.
- Scourges are probably our best non-vehicle shooting unit . . . and are banned from all our transports.
- Sslyth and Medusae may appreciate being in transports, though doing this is rather wasting the durability of the former, and the minuscule range of the latter's weapon is likely compromising the safety of the transport.
- Of our HQs, only the Archon has the option for a meaningful ranged weapon. Not only that, but putting him in a transport is a pain because of the lack of space in our transports and the fact that every squad bar the Court fills a Venom even at minimum size.

Then we have the 5 other HQs, Lhamaeans, Ur-Ghuls, Wyches, Bloodbrides, Incubi, Wracks and Grotesques - all of which want to be hitting the enemy in melee, not cooped up in a transport. Even if we doscount HQ choices and are very generous with the units that benefit from open-topped transports, we're still left with 5 Infantry units that benefit and 7 that don't.

In essence, whilst open topped is nice, the majority of our Infantry and HQ units are much more melee oriented and so lose more than they gain by being stuck in transports. This leads me to:

3) Open topped does nothing whatsoever for melee units. This is a huge blow for our transports as it means they are no better for our melee units than Rhinos or Chimeras (arguably worse, as the latter at least has extra spaces for characters).

The open-topped rule is nice (and I appreciate that our vehicles are no longer death-traps), but it is only of benefit to dedicated shooting units, whilst the majority of our Infantry and HQs in need of transports are melee-focused.

Also, I'd just like the option of more variety. Yes, DE in transports is iconic, but it can also get really tedious when it's your only choice. In addition, I think the 'iconic' ship sailed when GW chose to ban the Archon from riding with either his elites (Trueborn) or guards/warriors (Incubi) in a Venom. Razz


As an aside, I find it laughable that Repair Barges are somehow not open-topped. They've literally got no tops as well as great, gaping holes in their sides. How many more parts do they need to remove before they're allowed to be classed as open-topped? Neutral


CptMetal wrote:
We can win without putting a single boot to the ground.

Did you ever play Dawn of War: Soulstorm?

The Dark Eldar in it had some pretty good quotes, with my favourite being from the Scourges:

"The earth does not deserve to touch my feet."

That one just always stuck with me. Twisted Evil

https://youtu.be/n5LkfvBNI4A?t=65
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