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 rant about GW and play testers

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zergavas
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zergavas
Kabalite Warrior
zergavas


Posts : 131
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 10 2017, 23:12

I can try to dig out the Space wolf combo again but in the mean time i just saw a raider getting left in the dirt by guardsmen, they can now run 18"

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Our skimmers are armored with wet cardboard, our men are wrapped in tissue paper armor and most of our ICs and special characters live in abject terror at the thought of a Str 6 weapon that can insta-kill them, We are the Dark Eldar Fear us!
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zergavas
Kabalite Warrior
zergavas


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 10 2017, 23:16

Did i say space wolf i ment dark angels (Not my doing and way to lazy to check all the rules for it other than RAW the - to hit checks out)

"Outrider Detachement
Hq
Azrael
Asmodai

Elite
Ravenwing Apothecary
10 termies
Fast
3 darkshroud assault cannon
10 Black Knights

Everyone got :
9 LD
+1attack
3++/4++
4+ Heal model/revive
Reroll hit
Get hit on 6+ by range weapon
You are oblige to multicharge both units
And got 10 termies 8 with Th/SS 2 with Assault cannon
So its 30 assault cannon and 20 plasma talon all twinlinked
2 wounds each minimum"

_________________
Our skimmers are armored with wet cardboard, our men are wrapped in tissue paper armor and most of our ICs and special characters live in abject terror at the thought of a Str 6 weapon that can insta-kill them, We are the Dark Eldar Fear us!
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TeenageAngst
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 00:49

Something tells me 192 Razorwing Flocks would destroy those Dark Angels considering they're already built around hitting and wounding on practically nothing.

As for the hobby vs. the listbuilding vs. the lore, this is where the argument of the new edition falls apart for me. 7th edition had problems. Big problems. The game system was so bloated and cumbersome it was breaking its own ankles trying to shuffle from release to release. The thing is though it could have been fixed by just taking a few of the 8th edition changes and applying them. Consolidate some of the universal rules, most of them were very similar anyway. Add the reworked AP and to hit and to wound modifiers and the move stat, those are great too. Keep the reworked wound system, I personally like it. And if after all the streamlining (NOT dumbing down, streamlining) is done, if it's still too complex for the children, give super-simplified rules for the kids.

Kids have imaginations, they also don't give a crap about things like meta, proper rules, etc. I played Pokemon cards as a kid for years. The game had a rulebook the size of a checkbook, and I STILL can say I never played a proper, tournament legal game of Pokemon cards in my life. So give them super simple rules and have them fill in the blanks as they want. If a rule doesn't make sense, kids will ignore it. If they don't understand something, they come up with something else. All they wanna do is shoot space marines at each other and roll some dice, maybe, sometimes, when it's convenient. Complicated rules never stopped friends from having fun with their tiny plastic space men. What they did do however was give those kids something to grow into. Something they could invest themselves in and be rewarded for it, just like how the more complicated models and painting techniques gives kids something to grow into in the creative aspect of the hobby. Now that has been significantly diminished.

The rules of 8th edition are bland and hollow. The fact my 200 Razorwing list, or a 300 Brimstone Horror list, or a 500 Grot list... forget how effective it is, the fact it's even viable as a legal tournament army sends the message that no one involved in the playtesting thought for a moment like an actual tournament player does. For narrative and fluffy play, the game is more boring due to a distinct lack of verisimilitude compared to the previous edition. For tournament play, it's spam armies cranked beyond any semblance of reason. In all but a few specific circumstances the game has gotten objectively worse, somewhere between "less interesting" and "outright unplayable".

Which, if the game is fundamentally broken (or at least, for the duration, a napkin drawing of a ruleset until all the codexes are out) that just leaves the hobby and the lore. Except the lore has now been changed too. GW took the 'soft reset' approach and decided to say that, while all the old lore still technically exists, it's just completely and entirely irrelevant because time has moved forward 200 years. It doesn't matter if Biel-Tan was a bastion of Eldar stiff-necks and home of the mighty Swordwind for the past 10,000 years, it's gone now. It WAS all that, it HAD an interesting lore, but now it's all changed. Same with Fenris, same with Cadia, same with the Eye of Terror, Ulthwe, Commorragh, Ultramar, you name it, they changed it irrevocably and with zero regard for anyone's dudes who might happen to be in/be based in one of those many, many settings who *doesn't* want their lore to change, or doesn't want it to change in that direction.

So for someone like me, to whom the new rules are a mess and the new lore just as bad, that only leaves the hobby. Well the hobby goes hand in hand with the other two parts. If I just wanted to build models I could do so, and cheaper, by buying other things. 40k is about all three things to me, so if the other two parts are missing, the hobby aspect loses its appeal as well. Yes, nothing is stopping me from spending all the time I want painting, but why bother when my army is no longer relevant in the lore, and the game itself is boring?

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Trystis
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Trystis


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 06:42

I feel very much the same as Calyptra. This hobby is absurdly expensive if all your doing is gluing grey plastic together, and pushing it around the table. If I spend $20 on a model and spend 20 hours modeling and painting it then then the hobby actually becomes one of my most affordable forms of entertainment. Beyond that being able to customize equipment and poses of my troops in addition to choosing how to paint them is part of what makes the game fun when I play it.

Similarly, I would look at other games like xwing or infinity or whatever if I was only playing for the game itself. Many, if not most, have better, cleaner, more balanced rules. GW has chosen a different path that brings the hobby aspect to the front and the game itself sits alongside or even behind that in priority. I think it's important to keep this in mind when choosing how to spend your time, because if your pissed at GW for that then it's really on you. The game only exists to show off your models and have fun, you definitely don't have to play it that way, but you are probably going to be disappointed by a lot of what they do if you try to force it into a different box.


When the topic of the brimstone/razorwing/whatever spam came up at the store the group laughed at the ideal of anyone actually playing it. Sure it may make it to a tournament or whatever if the organizers don't ban it, but at my areas FLGSs you would never find a game, ever. Enjoy staring at the 200 identical models on your shelf...
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4thDimensionWizard
Hellion
4thDimensionWizard


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 07:32

At least half of all the players I know are in it for the game, rather than for painting and the models. And that is a generous estimate for painters. The majority of players I know would pay someone else to paint their models if money was no concern.

We actually have a fairly talented painter in my core group that really enjoys painting, and who is the primary caretaker for his kids while his wife works, so he charges very low rates for good quality painting, since he can do it while taking care of the kids. There are a lot of people who utilize his services, and he charges money. If he didn't, or if people had more money, more would do so.

I'm not saying painting and modeling aren't a big part of the hobby. They are, because GW made it that way. But you've taken a pretty hardline stance against anyone who isn't in the hobby for the same reasons as you, and I think that is a pretty narrow-minded view of the hobby in general. We play a tabletop wargame. Whether you like that aspect of it or not should not dictate that those who do are undeserving of a good time. GW doesn't deny that it's a tabletop wargame, they encouraged it for 30 years by making rules to make it so. Them also encouraging painters and hobbyists who are more interested in the aesthetic side of the hobby doesn't mean that the game element is unimportant.

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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 07:50

My stance is on,y that if your goals are different than those of GW's product then you will often be disappointed. I don't really consider that hardline.

Add with Edit for fun: I guess what I'm saying that if GW is making cheeseburgers, and you want a steak, but buy GW's cheeseburger instead you will like find it disappointing even if you still enjoy it. Trying to make that cheese burger into a steak will also always come up short. Complaining that the cheeseburger is not a steak is also going to lead to frustration. If you are wanting a steak there are plenty of steak restaurants to choose from. It's like that but replace the food with games. I'm sorry I'm hungry right now...
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TeenageAngst
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 08:04

40k used to be a game first. Back when Rick Priestly has his say. Back in the halcyon days of 2nd and 3rs edition...

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Trystis
Kabalite Warrior
Trystis


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 08:11

TeenageAngst wrote:
40k used to be a game first. Back when Rick Priestly has his say. Back in the halcyon days of 2nd and 3rs edition...

Indeed, used to, but even then it was to push models... It was also super unbalanced, just like always.

Also if we are wanting think that far back the edition change from 2nd to 3rd also saw dramatically reduced rules and the removal of virtually all fluff related mechanics until the codex for your army came out. The same complaints were made then too.  It then went on to become my favorite edition. I doubt 8th will pull that off, but from the games I have played so far I like it better than 6th or 7th. Time will tell.

Edit: if I remember right back when it was created it lifted the rules from fantasy more or less.
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4thDimensionWizard
Hellion
4thDimensionWizard


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 17:17

The game has never been as simple and uninspired as it is in 8th edition. So saying that it's the fault of customers if they have higher expectations than this is pretty insulting after 30 years of rules that were far more engaging and complex.

The problem isn't only the fluff-related rules. It's all of the rules, for the most part. No vehicle facings, no firing arcs, no templates, WS that doesn't matter defensively...I could go on and on. All of these eliminate the tactical decision-making that has been a staple of the game basically since rogue trader. Not every iteration of 40k had all the same rules, but they all created an environment in which there were plenty of tactical decisions to be made on the table. This one ditches all of that. These things won't be fixed with codex releases, because they're a problem within the core game itself.

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CptMetal
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 17:47

4thDimensionWizard wrote:
The game has never been as simple and uninspired as it is in 8th edition. So saying that it's the fault of customers if they have higher expectations than this is pretty insulting after 30 years of rules that were far more engaging and complex.

The problem isn't only the fluff-related rules. It's all of the rules, for the most part. No vehicle facings, no firing arcs, no templates, WS that doesn't matter defensively...I could go on and on. All of these eliminate the tactical decision-making that has been a staple of the game basically since rogue trader. Not every iteration of 40k had all the same rules, but they all created an environment in which there were plenty of tactical decisions to be made on the table. This one ditches all of that. These things won't be fixed with codex releases, because they're a problem within the core game itself.

Eas solution: Stop playing 8th
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4thDimensionWizard
Hellion
4thDimensionWizard


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 17:59

CptMetal wrote:
4thDimensionWizard wrote:
The game has never been as simple and uninspired as it is in 8th edition. So saying that it's the fault of customers if they have higher expectations than this is pretty insulting after 30 years of rules that were far more engaging and complex.

The problem isn't only the fluff-related rules. It's all of the rules, for the most part. No vehicle facings, no firing arcs, no templates, WS that doesn't matter defensively...I could go on and on. All of these eliminate the tactical decision-making that has been a staple of the game basically since rogue trader. Not every iteration of 40k had all the same rules, but they all created an environment in which there were plenty of tactical decisions to be made on the table. This one ditches all of that. These things won't be fixed with codex releases, because they're a problem within the core game itself.

Eas solution: Stop playing 8th

I may do just that, but when we're ranting about GW changes and playtesters(the point of this thread), is this sort of comment really adding to the discussion? The answer is no, and I've been respectful of all others opinions on this site, so I will thank you to not be rude and suggest people quit playing if they don't agree with your opinion.

You've been particularly dismissive and rude towards me ever since I joined the site, and I don't know why. I see you being fine interacting with other people.

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Trystis
Kabalite Warrior
Trystis


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 18:09

4thDimensionWizard wrote:
The game has never been as simple and uninspired as it is in 8th edition. So saying that it's the fault of customers if they have higher expectations than this is pretty insulting after 30 years of rules that were far more engaging and complex.

The problem isn't only the fluff-related rules. It's all of the rules, for the most part. No vehicle facings, no firing arcs, no templates, WS that doesn't matter defensively...I could go on and on. All of these eliminate the tactical decision-making that has been a staple of the game basically since rogue trader. Not every iteration of 40k had all the same rules, but they all created an environment in which there were plenty of tactical decisions to be made on the table. This one ditches all of that. These things won't be fixed with codex releases, because they're a problem within the core game itself.

This is exactly my point. You want a game that has all of that. GW wanted to make a game that didn't. Its not their failure that they didn't make the game you wanted. This disconnect isn't your fault, but neither is it theirs. You can't please everyone. Lots of people are really digging 8th, at least in my area.

The issue I'm pointing out is GW is selling "X" and your wanting "Y". Its not reasonable to buy "X" and get mad that it's not "Y". If you want "Y" go buy "Y", don't buy "X" and bitch that it isn't "Y". At one point GW was basically all there was for this type of game, now there are tons though. More than I can really name. Many offer what you are looking for. Why be so insistent on fitting this square peg in your round whole?
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TeenageAngst
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 18:14

We will get what we want. Meta always ends up dominating even casual tables, and I'm bound and determined to drive 120 Razorwing flocks straight into the NOVA GT.

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The Shredder
Trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 18:25

Trystis wrote:

This is exactly my point. You want a game that has all of that. GW wanted to make a game that didn't. Its not their failure that they didn't make the game you wanted. This disconnect isn't your fault, but neither is it theirs. You can't please everyone. Lots of people are really digging 8th, at least in my area.

The issue I'm pointing out is GW is selling "X" and your wanting "Y". Its not reasonable to buy "X" and get mad that it's not "Y". If you want "Y" go buy "Y", don't buy "X" and bitch that it isn't "Y". At one point GW was basically all there was for this type of game, now there are tons though. More than I can really name. Many offer what you are looking for. Why be so insistent on fitting this square peg in your round whole?

The thing is though, there's a big difference between making a system that some people don't like from scratch, and changing an existing system in such a way that the reasons why many people bought into it in the first place no longer exist. That is a failure on GW's part.
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4thDimensionWizard
Hellion
4thDimensionWizard


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 18:30

Trystis wrote:

The issue I'm pointing out is GW is selling "X" and your wanting "Y". Its not reasonable to buy "X" and get mad that it's not "Y". If you want "Y" go buy "Y", don't buy "X" and bitch that it isn't "Y".

It was "X" when I spent 5 thousand dollars on it. I think that entitles me to be at least slightly perturbed when they change it to "Y". Don't you? If you don't, we probably shouldn't continue down this rabbit hole. See what I did there? You might need to read the whole thing to get it. Wink

Trystis wrote:
Why be so insistent on fitting this square peg in your round whole?

Because the peg was round when I bought it, and GW changed it. I already have the product. If I could undo my expenditures and have all my money back instead, I assure you that is precisely what I'd do right now. That isn't an option, so can I at least voice my displeasure in a thread about voicing displeasure without someone claiming that me being dissatisfied is unreasonable? Thanks.

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Trystis
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 18:33

That would be a sunken cost fallacy.
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The Shredder
Trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 18:35

Trystis wrote:
That would be a sunken cost fallacy.

That would only apply if he kept on with 40k (playing it and/or buying into it more) in spite of hating it.
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4thDimensionWizard
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 18:41

Trystis wrote:
That would be a sunken cost fallacy.

I don't think you understand what sunken cost fallacy is, as this definitely isn't it. Sunken cost fallacy would be me continuing to invest in a game I'm dissatisfied with or that offers less of what I'm looking for because of the fact I'd already invested 5k into it. I'm not suggesting that I will invest further into this game. I'm complaining that the game is now not the thing that I want, and that if GW wants my continued business, they're going to need to step up their game and return to providing the type of system that interests me. That's the exact opposite of a sunken cost fallacy.

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Jim_the_archon
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 18:54

Plus the fact that GW is still probably the biggest one doing it. I don't know anyone in my circle of friends who plays any other system and none of them have the disposable income to just switch over to another game. So if I went over to another game yay I now have models I can do nothing with....
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zergavas
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 19:03

how do you get 120 Razorwing flocks on the table at a max 3 detatchment?

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TeenageAngst
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 19:52

Outrider detachment allows 6 units of birbs and 2 Beastmasters.

Each Beastmaster grants 1 unslotted unit of birbs.

Each unit of birbs holds up to 12 models.

12*8=96

2 Outrider detachments is 192 birbs for under 1400 points.

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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 20:07

Those birds are the worst thing in this book Smile
Why you people so obsessed with them?

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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 20:18

Perhaps he likes... flipping them... Cool

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 11 2017, 20:22

Devilogical wrote:
Those birds are the worst thing in this book Smile
Why you people so obsessed with them?

Because for the same cost as a Warrior you get 4 wounds, 8 attacks and a speed of 12".

Sure, they're incredibly easy to wound, but they'd have a total of 768 wounds (not including the Beastmaster).
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4thDimensionWizard
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    rant about GW and play testers  - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 12 2017, 07:53

The Shredder wrote:
Devilogical wrote:
Those birds are the worst thing in this book Smile
Why you people so obsessed with them?

Because for the same cost as a Warrior you get 4 wounds, 8 attacks and a speed of 12".

Sure, they're incredibly easy to wound, but they'd have a total of 768 wounds (not including the Beastmaster).

Yeah, good luck dealing with them with an army of the much lauded dark lances! Wink

There are just too many models for things like DLs to deal with, and too many wounds for things like kabalites to deal with.

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