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Creeping Darkness
Wych
Creeping Darkness

Posts : 555
Join date : 2012-11-21

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 01:27

Honestly, I think half of the battle many here are facing (bland, doesn't reflect the fluff, etc) is simply due to the Index clearly being based on the 7ed book. The peccadilloes of which we all know and love, well, we all know.

I'm hopeful that in due time we will get an 8ed Codex that screams flavour and cool stuff turned up to 11. But until then I'm excited to try us out in the new version of the game, happy that I can try a whole bunch of units I haven't used in ages again, and looking forward to being able to hurt everything on the table.

I'm 100% sure we will be better in 8ed than we were in 7ed. There are differences, sure, and there are comparisons where we fall shorter than we may have liked. There's room to be miffed at some of those but still look forward to our spiky space sadists enslaving all before us!

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TeenageAngst
Incubi
TeenageAngst

Posts : 1846
Join date : 2016-08-29

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 01:35

Rules wise the only reason to complain as far as I can tell is terrible lapses in judgement made in the name of simplification and pigeonholing us into 3 separate subfactions that don't interact at all. All our units from the holistic perspective of "game" and "simplification" are perfectly fine if not better than most other armies. It's just those two perspectives seem to be the only ones used when they carved this ruleset out. Like I said, Lelith having combat drugs is pretty much the hallmark of this entire edition. Simplification and balance *at all costs*.

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Barrywise
Wych
Barrywise

Posts : 621
Join date : 2012-11-14
Location : Illinois

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 01:36

There is only war

anyone want to upgrade their Haemonculi's splinter pistol to a stinger pistol for 7 points?
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Creeping Darkness
Wych
Creeping Darkness

Posts : 555
Join date : 2012-11-21

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 02:38

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Like I said, Lelith having combat drugs is pretty much the hallmark of this entire edition. Simplification and balance *at all costs*.

Lelith was on drugs in 3ed too. She's been around a while, the drug-free days were probably just a phase she was going through Smile

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TeenageAngst
Incubi
TeenageAngst

Posts : 1846
Join date : 2016-08-29

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 02:40

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Like I said, Lelith having combat drugs is pretty much the hallmark of this entire edition. Simplification and balance *at all costs*.

Lelith was on drugs in 3ed too. She's been around a while, the drug-free days were probably just a phase she was going through Smile

Spin it however you want, I still choose to ignore all the new lore.

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Gobsmakked
Rumour Scourge
Gobsmakked

Posts : 3274
Join date : 2011-05-14
Location : Vancouver, BC

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 02:48

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
Honestly, I think half of the battle many here are facing (bland, doesn't reflect the fluff, etc) is simply due to the Index clearly being based on the 7ed book. The peccadilloes of which we all know and love, well, we all know.

I'm hopeful that in due time we will get an 8ed Codex that screams flavour and cool stuff turned up to 11. But until then I'm excited to try us out in the new version of the game, happy that I can try a whole bunch of units I haven't used in ages again, and looking forward to being able to hurt everything on the table.

I'm 100% sure we will be better in 8ed than we were in 7ed. There are differences, sure, and there are comparisons where we fall shorter than we may have liked. There's room to be miffed at some of those but still look forward to our spiky space sadists enslaving all before us!

^Word.
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Faitherun
Sybarite
Faitherun

Posts : 297
Join date : 2017-02-13

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 02:50

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@Creeping Darkness wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Like I said, Lelith having combat drugs is pretty much the hallmark of this entire edition. Simplification and balance *at all costs*.

Lelith was on drugs in 3ed too. She's been around a while, the drug-free days were probably just a phase she was going through Smile

Spin it however you want, I still choose to ignore all the new lore.

I think it's a relapse / downward spiral after the events at the start of the Fracture of Biel-Tan.... You know, where some never-before-heard-of chick mars her skin and then bests her....

Lelith is just a upset about all that as you are TeenageAngst, and these drugs are just her way of cooping...
Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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TeenageAngst
Incubi
TeenageAngst

Posts : 1846
Join date : 2016-08-29

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 02:55

@Faitherun wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
@Creeping Darkness wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Like I said, Lelith having combat drugs is pretty much the hallmark of this entire edition. Simplification and balance *at all costs*.

Lelith was on drugs in 3ed too. She's been around a while, the drug-free days were probably just a phase she was going through Smile

Spin it however you want, I still choose to ignore all the new lore.

I think it's a relapse / downward spiral after the events at the start of the Fracture of Biel-Tan.... You know, where some never-before-heard-of chick mars her skin and then bests her....

Lelith is just a upset about all that as you are TeenageAngst, and these drugs are just her way of cooping...
Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Yet another reason why I choose to ignore that story. As for her using drugs to cope, that's a little too close to home for me so I'll ignore that too, thanks.

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Calyptra
Wych
Calyptra

Posts : 802
Join date : 2013-03-25
Location : Boston

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 04:22

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Like I said, Lelith having combat drugs is pretty much the hallmark of this entire edition. Simplification and balance *at all costs*.

Lelith was on drugs in 3ed too. She's been around a while, the drug-free days were probably just a phase she was going through Smile

Lelith did not have combat drugs in the 3rd ed codex (either version). She did have a rule (in both versions) that if you gave her a Wych retinue, you could choose the retinue's drugs instead of rolling. Maybe you're thinking of that?

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Talos
Kabalite Warrior
Talos

Posts : 163
Join date : 2011-09-15
Location : Malmö

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 04:33

From an old dark elder faq. 3rd edition codex for 5th edition 40k.

Q: Does Lelith Hesperax gain the advantages of the combat drugs her retinue has?

A: She does, otherwise she would be the only Wych in the army (and probably in the universe) not to use combat drugs.


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Ubernoob1
Kabalite Warrior
Ubernoob1

Posts : 154
Join date : 2013-04-20
Location : Newport News, Virginia

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 04:42

If I may ask a question related to the new to hit and to wound modifiers? Are special rules that are triggered on 6s affected by these things now?

For example with Shaimeshi blades and flesh gauntlets if one had a -1 to wound with them would they be unable to get a 6 as that would count as a 5? Or if they had a +1 to wound would 5s trigger a "to wound roll of 6+" special ability?
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TeenageAngst
Incubi
TeenageAngst

Posts : 1846
Join date : 2016-08-29

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 04:48

@Ubernoob1 wrote:
If I may ask a question related to the new to hit and to wound modifiers? Are special rules that are triggered on 6s affected by these things now?

For example with Shiameshi blades and flesh gauntlets if one had a -1 to wound with them would they be unable to get a 6 as that would count as a 5? Or if they had a +1 to wound would 5s trigger a "to wound roll of 6+" special ability?

I have no idea if you go off the math or go off the die face for determining that. But since this is the most simplified and easy to learn ruleset I must be some kind of chimp.

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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

Posts : 4308
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 05:42

I've played full rules with a group of players here are some Pros/cons and what i've learned.

Pros:

Raiders are AMAZING
Hellions can turn 1 charge without trying
Archon can actually kill in melee now
Agonisers are cheap take them everywhere
Warriors can Melee now (turn 3-4 is best)
Syberites with Blast Pistol and Agonisher is scary in Melee
Talos are amazing (can take 2 TL-Flamers and Splinter Cannon)
Splinter Cannons are AMAZING
Shredders Shred
PfP is good
Archon is better now

Cons:

AP not on poison sucks
No Psychic (this is huge!)
Our Abilities SUCK!
HQ's dont really add alot of the army


Warriors are still the way to go. Raider with Dis-Cannons are for sure the way to go, b.c wen a Raider moves with a DL its -1 to hit sense its heavy (I didnt see anywhere this is ignored). DL's are still good, but put them on something that doesnt move alot, your Raiders will be ALL OVER the place! miss read, still raiders+warriors are strong!

2x units of 10 Warriors with Agoniser, Blast Pistol, Splinter Cannon, blaster did WORK!

Splinter Cannons are NOT NERF they are for sure a buff, They are not "Heavy" weapons so you can move and get full BS, being within 18 is normal now, so its a 14" moving 6 shots at 18".

My Warriors charged and even killed a unit of Marines b.c of PfP and Agoniser (2+ to hit with them is so good!)

Hellions were scary, I gave them T4 sense i went against Guard and SM's with all that long range i was scared, but i didnt expect to easily charge, next time +1 attack or +2 Movement to 100% always get wounds/charges off.


Over all its good, not Necrons good, but good.

Edit: PS Harlequins are godly (didnt play them yet will next week but from how we are seeing the games play out, i'm 100% sure they are top mid tier if not low top tier with a good player can win easily).

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Harlequins 5k+
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Last edited by amishprn86 on Fri Jun 02 2017, 06:38; edited 1 time in total
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TeenageAngst
Incubi
TeenageAngst

Posts : 1846
Join date : 2016-08-29

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 05:59

On a serious note, could bat-reps be left in the bat-rep forum? Running into them in random topics is a bit like browsing Facebook before the 7th Harry Potter book was released and everyone was posting the spoilers.

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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

Posts : 4308
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 06:02

@TeenageAngst wrote:
On a serious note, could bat-reps be left in the bat-rep forum? Running into them in random topics is a bit like browsing Facebook before the 7th Harry Potter book was released and everyone was posting the spoilers.

Seriously wasnt a bat rep tho....... it was what i saw from new rules that i liked.

When 8th ed is fully out it wont be a "rumor" anymore and i will write up some batreps.

If the moderators wants me to put this in tactics when the game isnt out yet, then i'm 100% ok with that, just say the word.

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Creeping Darkness
Wych
Creeping Darkness

Posts : 555
Join date : 2012-11-21

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 06:17

@Talos wrote:
From an old dark elder faq. 3rd edition codex for 5th edition 40k.

Q: Does Lelith Hesperax gain the advantages of the combat drugs her retinue has?

A: She does, otherwise she would be the only Wych in the army (and probably in the universe) not to use combat drugs.

Indeed. Which is why some of us found it hilarious that come 5ed, Lelith was indeed the only wych in the universe not to use combat drugs Razz

@amishprn86 wrote:
I've played full rules with a group of players here are some Pros/cons and what i've learned...

Thanks for sharing! It's probably too early to nitpick, but from the leaks I've seen, you can't reroll a shadowfield save for any reason (presumably includes CPs). But on the bright side, there's a note against the Dark Lance on Raiders and Ravagers that tells you to change the weapon type to 'Assault' when mounted on a vehicle. So hit on 3+, or 4+ if you shoot it while advancing Smile

I really am looking forward to running some Hellions again. Did you get to try their super Hit and Run?

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CurstAlchemist
Wych
CurstAlchemist

Posts : 915
Join date : 2015-05-01

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 06:34

@amishprn86 wrote:
Raider with Dis-Cannons are for sure the way to go, b.c wen a Raider moves with a DL its -1 to hit sense its heavy (I didnt see anywhere this is ignored). DL's are still good, but put them on something that doesnt move alot, your Raiders will be ALL OVER the place!

On the datasheet for a vehicle that has Dark Lances as a weapon option, read the part under ability, it says to change it's type from Heavy to Assault if it is equipped on a vehicle.

Edit: I should have read everything posted before I posted, Creeping Darkness beat me to it.


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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

Posts : 4308
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 06:37

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Raider with Dis-Cannons are for sure the way to go, b.c wen a Raider moves with a DL its -1 to hit sense its heavy (I didnt see anywhere this is ignored). DL's are still good, but put them on something that doesnt move alot, your Raiders will be ALL OVER the place!

On the raider and ravager datasheet look at the ability part of the Dark Lance entry, it says to change it's type from Heavy to Assault if it is equipped on a vehicle.

I must have over looked that. b.c I was looking at the Abilities section and not the weapon entries.


it should just be on the abilities   -.-

ABout CP, and SHadowfield you are 100% Correct! I missed that too! English is hard for me and i'm dyslexic so the reading parts are a bit off, i have friend dbl check my reading, we all were reading so many rules many slipped through.

About judging, yes it is still soon but we play a few games with full rules (Im noting going to show any pics or anything yet), but any veteran players after playing a few games know what generally works.

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Creeping Darkness
Wych
Creeping Darkness

Posts : 555
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 06:42

Yeah, there's lots, it's easy to miss. I find it's a lot harder to track all of the rules when they're in leaks like this. Much easier when they're in a book!

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Sairaus
Slave
Sairaus

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Join date : 2016-08-11

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 07:38

There's no mention of needing los for charging. This could be useful especially for units with fly... The real question is overwatch.

a) it is resolved as normal shooting and as they have no los, they cannot shoot
b) the unit that shoots and it's target have already been decided so next you choose weapon to shoot etc. What about flamers and other weapons with <12" range?
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Creeping Darkness
Wych
Creeping Darkness

Posts : 555
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 08:01

@Sairaus wrote:
There's no mention of needing los for charging. This could be useful especially for units with fly... The real question is overwatch.

a) it is resolved as normal shooting and as they have no los, they cannot shoot
b) the unit that shoots and it's target have already been decided so next you choose weapon to shoot etc.  What about flamers and other weapons with <12" range?

I wonder about these questions also. Nothing that I have seen so far allows flamers to shoot more than their range, so careful positioning of our assault units (and some luck from the reroll) will let us dodge flamer overwatch.

In fact, can we say for sure that flamers hit automatically on overwatch? Or do they need 6s like everything else? How does "automatically hits" interact with "always hits on 6s, regardless of modifiers"? Is "automatic hit" considered a modifer to the hit roll, or a replacement?

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|Meavar
Hekatrix
|Meavar

Posts : 1041
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 08:31

@Sairaus good questions, to me it would makes sense you still shoot, you just wait till the enemy is visible / in range. But you could also say that then they would not have enough time to ready their hth weapons anymore.

@Cdarkness auto hit is not a modifer,
Otherwise you still missed on rolls of a 1, because a 1 always misses even with modifiers. Which then makes the sentence automatically hit useless.
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Scrz
Sybarite
Scrz

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 10:05

If the old Talos tail weapon was able to have twin linked splinter cannons, should not the current SC Talos have 6 shots since twin linking double the shots? Have I read it right when I think it only gets 3?
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 10:07

It has 2 of them

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CptMetal
Trueborn
CptMetal

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Full rules and all Indexes - Page 7 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 02 2017, 10:18

So 12 shots up close. And I want him near the enemy so I like that.
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