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 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!

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Count Adhemar
CptMetal
hekatrixxy
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Devilogical
Massaen
Xivai
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mynamelegend
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 15:22

Huh. I'm reading these and being all "Wow, this is actually pretty neat. Tau will play less like a boring gunline army and more like they have to actually care about any strategy beside JSJ", and people are being salty instead? It's not like the new Tau stuff is outright bad compared to what we've seen elsewhere.

A Broadside suit with high yield missile pods is 202 points, and he's got eight S7 AP-1 D3 attacks. That's 25 points per autocannon-equivalent shot, on a pretty damn survivable platform even before you count the ability for any nearby drones to heroically tank lascannon shots for them. Comparing it to other things we've seen in the SM/BA leaks, that sounds entirely reasonable - and that's before we count that they can also fire two volleys of four S5 shots, and can split-fire all those four weapons.

Just because they're not 65 points a pop for some of the most undercosted autocannon fire point-for-hit in the game doesn't mean they're bad.

Wouldn't it be nice if Tau tactics involved using kroot meat shields, vespid deep-insertion anti-marine specialists, and general mise en place instead of lining up your giant mechas and shooting them until the enemy dies or you do?

I've had fewer fun battles against Tau than almost any other army except perhaps 'crons, win or lose they just never were particularly engaging to fight. Now I'm looking at this and thinking that might change.
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Cherrycoke
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 19:49

Adding up the costs

A hammerhead with an ion cannon + smart missle system cost  125 points in the codex im look at previously.

The same hammerhead totaling up the points is  117 + 55 ion cannon + 20 smart missile system, 192

Seems a big increase from 125 to 192 using that points system, while say.. a firewarrior went from  9 points to 8 in this edition.

Edit, 2x smart missile systems now.. so it would be 117 + 55 + 20 + 20 = 212
from 125 to 212... Ouch.
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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 21:27

Well, I think that the new DE Detachement settles it: everything on your model is wargear (some of it can be free)

Heres the link:https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/New40kChoosingArmyList1.jpg

The reason why they separated the points costs of models and wargear is for balancing, btw: when they do their updates/Erratas, they can specifically address what needs to be nerfed/buffed.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 21:30

Vehicles will be much more expensive. But if our raiders will be more deadly, I´m fine with that.
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 22:13

@RoadRageRob666 wrote:
Well, I think that the new DE Detachement settles it: everything on your model is wargear (some of it can be free)

The offical GW Warhammer 40,000 Facebook page has the following to say:

Warhammer 40,000 wrote:
All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

_________________
8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 31 2017, 06:12

So youre telling me that a Raider with 1 DL is the same points cost as a Ravager with 3 DL?

https://instagram.fyzd1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/t51.2885-15/e35/18722510_1448998291829191_5344755198331977728_n.jpg

You havent included the context of that quote, was it asking about a specific unit? Most basic units have weapons that have a cost of zero.

Edit: actually, between the DE points value leak and the "Choosing an Army" release by GW, its confirmed that you need to pay for the wargear that is automatically included

Archon= 54 points base: comes stock with a splinter pistol (0pts) and a huskblade (unknown points)

The wargear listed in the GW release comes to 23 points and includes: Huskblade (Xpts), Blast pistol (10pts) and Phant Launcher (3pts), which means that the huskblade is 10 pts.

This also means that the huskblade (which comes stock on the datasheet) *isnt* included in the models point value.

Heres the page for GW in question: https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/New40kChoosingArmyList1.jpg

Also, looking at the Raider and Voidraven just further solidifies this: DL=20 pts, Shock Prows =1, Void Lances =0pts, and thats all reflected in the post (https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/New40kChoosingArmyList2.jpg)


Last edited by RoadRageRob666 on Wed May 31 2017, 07:00; edited 1 time in total
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Xivai
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 31 2017, 06:54

@mynamelegend wrote:
Huh. I'm reading these and being all "Wow, this is actually pretty neat. Tau will play less like a boring gunline army and more like they have to actually care about any strategy beside JSJ", and people are being salty instead? It's not like the new Tau stuff is outright bad compared to what we've seen elsewhere.

A Broadside suit with high yield missile pods is 202 points, and he's got eight S7 AP-1 D3 attacks. That's 25 points per autocannon-equivalent shot, on a pretty damn survivable platform even before you count the ability for any nearby drones to heroically tank lascannon shots for them. Comparing it to other things we've seen in the SM/BA leaks, that sounds entirely reasonable - and that's before we count that they can also fire two volleys of four S5 shots, and can split-fire all those four weapons.

Just because they're not 65 points a pop for some of the most undercosted autocannon fire point-for-hit in the game doesn't mean they're bad.

Wouldn't it be nice if Tau tactics involved using kroot meat shields, vespid deep-insertion anti-marine specialists, and general mise en place instead of lining up your giant mechas and shooting them until the enemy dies or you do?

I've had fewer fun battles against Tau than almost any other army except perhaps 'crons, win or lose they just never were particularly engaging to fight. Now I'm looking at this and thinking that might change.
We can't survive melee. Our crisis suits look to be our worst unit for its cost being out DPS'ed by frak vespid spam. Riptide can't be a big dumb carnifex target anymore. Now even the Sunshark has been totally one upped by the Raven leaving the Vespid as the sole unit the Tau has that is better than anything else in its class. Everything else people do for better and cheaper. Our unique abilities don' stack. So I can't take 3 cade fire blades to boost my shots on Firewarriors up who lost range advantage over primaris. Our plasma wepaons are terrible and will basically owund everything the same as strength 5 since even a land raider is T8 there is no point taking anything str 6 for exmaple since it will still be wounding anythign STR 5 will be for the same and it's extra -1 is not enough to justify a huge loss in firepower.

All around us are armies that can lower our BS to a 5+. I don't have the points and ML's to negate assault move penalties for caring and shooting so BS 6+ we make even frak orks look like crack shots now.

What do you want us to do? Our units are so expensive and frail for what they do relative to anything else. Crisis suits come in at half range plop off 6 shots with plasma for over 100 points a model depending on loadout. Or Vespids squad can plop of 18 shots that is wounding the same things it is on 5+ and it only has one less AP.

We got crap all. The Stormsurge and Ghostkeels are the only other good fringe units we have left. I forget who did the Tau preview article but he said the Stormsurge had 10 wepaons and this was a lie. It's technically correct but it only has 6 it can fire normally the other 4 are just he D-Missiles which you need to spend 2 ML on to do a measly 1d3 mortal wounds.

Our army is ridiculous and then people are expecting us to somehow SURVIVE melee for one round to run away with one suit and shoot 3 more shots? Look at how fast all your vehicles and charges are. I got like one round of Tau shooting to kill like half your army and it's not going to happen. Enemy armies are running around the map with freaking 2+ saves galore and we have very little firepower for its obscenely high cost.

How do you propose we play mobile? My mobile list of Tau is dead with 8th. The irony of these changes is it made gunline Tau the only viable crap option in a bad dex.

Man I don't know what the hell they were smoking designing the tau dex.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 31 2017, 09:49

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@RoadRageRob666 wrote:
Well, I think that the new DE Detachement settles it: everything on your model is wargear (some of it can be free)

The offical GW Warhammer 40,000 Facebook page has the following to say:

Warhammer 40,000 wrote:
All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

Meaning that they dun goofed with their balancing oppurtunities...  Damn it GW!!!  A shred of Competence!  Please!

Also, I "totally" called the cost of a Kabalite Warrior!  7 points.  

(The fact that the apparently free Splinter Rifle was costed at 10 points in my estimate is an irrelevant inconvenience, please move along.)

_________________
This world exists because of the things we have done, forever branching to the decisions we make and twisting to what we do not.

”Woe to our enemies.  We'll tear them apart regardless.” ~Barrywise
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 31 2017, 09:56

@Xivai wrote:
@mynamelegend wrote:
Huh. I'm reading these and being all "Wow, this is actually pretty neat. Tau will play less like a boring gunline army and more like they have to actually care about any strategy beside JSJ", and people are being salty instead? It's not like the new Tau stuff is outright bad compared to what we've seen elsewhere.

A Broadside suit with high yield missile pods is 202 points, and he's got eight S7 AP-1 D3 attacks. That's 25 points per autocannon-equivalent shot, on a pretty damn survivable platform even before you count the ability for any nearby drones to heroically tank lascannon shots for them. Comparing it to other things we've seen in the SM/BA leaks, that sounds entirely reasonable - and that's before we count that they can also fire two volleys of four S5 shots, and can split-fire all those four weapons.

Just because they're not 65 points a pop for some of the most undercosted autocannon fire point-for-hit in the game doesn't mean they're bad.

Wouldn't it be nice if Tau tactics involved using kroot meat shields, vespid deep-insertion anti-marine specialists, and general mise en place instead of lining up your giant mechas and shooting them until the enemy dies or you do?

I've had fewer fun battles against Tau than almost any other army except perhaps 'crons, win or lose they just never were particularly engaging to fight. Now I'm looking at this and thinking that might change.
We can't survive melee. Our crisis suits look to be our worst unit for its cost being out DPS'ed by frak vespid spam. Riptide can't be a big dumb carnifex target anymore. Now even the Sunshark has been totally one upped by the Raven leaving the Vespid as the sole unit the Tau has that is better than anything else in its class. Everything else people do for better and cheaper. Our unique abilities don' stack. So I can't take 3 cade fire blades to boost my shots on Firewarriors up who lost range advantage over primaris. Our plasma wepaons are terrible and will basically owund everything the same as strength 5 since even a land raider is T8 there is no point taking anything str 6 for exmaple since it will still be wounding anythign STR 5 will be for the same and it's extra -1 is not enough to justify a huge loss in firepower.

All around us are armies that can lower our BS to a 5+. I don't have the points and ML's to negate assault move penalties for caring and shooting so BS 6+ we make even frak orks look like crack shots now.

What do you want us to do? Our units are so expensive and frail for what they do relative to anything else. Crisis suits come in at half range plop off 6 shots with plasma for over 100 points a model depending on loadout. Or Vespids squad can plop of 18 shots that is wounding the same things it is on 5+ and it only has one less AP.

We got crap all. The Stormsurge and Ghostkeels are the only other good fringe units we have left. I forget who did the Tau preview article but he said the Stormsurge had 10 wepaons and this was a lie. It's technically correct but it only has 6 it can fire normally the other 4 are just he D-Missiles which you need to spend 2 ML on to do a measly 1d3 mortal wounds.

Our army is ridiculous and then people are expecting us to somehow SURVIVE melee for one round to run away with one suit and shoot 3 more shots? Look at how fast all your vehicles and charges are. I got like one round of Tau shooting to kill like half your army and it's not going to happen. Enemy armies are running around the map with freaking 2+ saves galore and we have very little firepower for its obscenely high cost.

How do you propose we play mobile? My mobile list of Tau is dead with 8th. The irony of these changes is it made gunline Tau the only viable crap option in a bad dex.

Man I don't know what the hell they were smoking designing the tau dex.

*Clears Throat*

"You are preaching to the choir here! 7th ed Deldar was a tradgedy we all survived. If it turns out that the Nerf boot has started kicking the other non-psychic army for a change, then more power to the Nerf boot."

_________________
This world exists because of the things we have done, forever branching to the decisions we make and twisting to what we do not.

”Woe to our enemies.  We'll tear them apart regardless.” ~Barrywise
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Xivai
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Xivai


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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 31 2017, 10:04

Except 8th edition was sold as the most balanced edition ever by frontline gaming and GW. A chance for every army to be on par and it's clear they are already showing favoritism. I know the Tau and lots of other stuff used to be strong, but if we want a better game going forward we all have to just set side that bullshit to make a game every army has a chance at winning a game in.

If not the cycle of hate repeats itself. The low tier armies will just get mad, rise in power, and then dominate those who showed no mercy to them and crap talk them. 8th was supposed to be an end to this reaper cycle crap, but if it isn't then it's just the same old crap show.

The alternative is that every factions fanbase become a crap posting crap show of cut throat politics trying to influence those in power enough to depress armies for certain editions and where 40k just goes back to the same old thing it's done forever.

I have a lot of grudges with armies and player bases in 40k myself, but was willing to look past that. I knew the Tau would be nerfed and was hoping it would be fair and in line with other strong armies getting nerfs. This isn't fair, not by a long shot. I also knew in advance that the two people at frontline had a thing against the Tau and were always bashing them on their podcasts, but I hoped they would prove me wrong.

That's the situation. Could be the DE crap on again in 9th and you have two options. I can care for you and feel for you and try and help everything be as balanced with feedback, or I can just play petty faction wars and do my best to make sure anything other than my fav's are in the mud rules wise. That's the divisive attitude being perpetuated in this game.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 31 2017, 10:42

@RoadRageRob666 wrote:
So youre telling me that a Raider with 1 DL is the same points cost as a Ravager with 3 DL?

https://instagram.fyzd1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/t51.2885-15/e35/18722510_1448998291829191_5344755198331977728_n.jpg

You havent included the context of that quote, was it asking about a specific unit? Most basic units have weapons that have a cost of zero.

The context was that someone asked if you had to pay for the stuff that a model was shown as being equipped with on the datasheet. Turns out even GW don't know the answer to that one!

It seems pretty clear now that you do indeed have to pay for the default wargear shown on the datasheet. I can vaguely see why they've done this but the way they did it was ambiguous and led to unnecessary confusion. Even now there seems to be some confusion. Reavers are 30ppm and are armed with a splinter pistol (0). They ride a Reaver Jetbike (erm?) armed with a Splinter Rifle (0) and Bladevanes (erm?). Now it's possible that Bladevanes are on the melee weapon list, I've yet to see a legible copy of that part of the page, but I don't see the point cost for a Reaver Jetbike anywhere. How much is it?

And yet it would have been SO easy to make this clear. Just list Wargear separately on the datasheet!

I just hope there's a decent list building app!

_________________
8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 31 2017, 17:18

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I just hope there's a decent listbuilding app!

Yes! And it costs 5.00 units of currency a month!

#GWNeverChanged

_________________
This world exists because of the things we have done, forever branching to the decisions we make and twisting to what we do not.

”Woe to our enemies.  We'll tear them apart regardless.” ~Barrywise
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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 31 2017, 17:19

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Bladevanes (erm?). Now it's possible that Bladevanes are on the melee weapon list, I've yet to see a legible copy of that part of the page, but I don't see the point cost for a Reaver Jetbike anywhere. How much is it? !
]

Heres the melee points values, bladevanes are zero (https://imgur.com/a/2o89W)! Also, stuff like jetbikes arent wargear anymore, theyre incorporated into the cost of the model (this is a little bit more evident in the CWE rules, which I just posted up).

Again, Im pretty sure that the rationale behind this was so that they can update either model points or wargear points for balancing purposes.

Regardless, looks like almost all of the pieces of the 8e puzzle have been filled in!
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 31 2017, 23:11

@RoadRageRob666 wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Bladevanes (erm?). Now it's possible that Bladevanes are on the melee weapon list, I've yet to see a legible copy of that part of the page, but I don't see the point cost for a Reaver Jetbike anywhere. How much is it? !
]

Heres the melee points values, bladevanes are zero (https://imgur.com/a/2o89W)! Also, stuff like jetbikes arent wargear anymore, theyre incorporated into the cost of the model (this is a little bit more evident in the CWE rules, which I just posted up).

I agree that Reaver Jetbikes probably aren't wargear anymore. But they're listed in exactly the same place and in exactly the same manner as everything that is wargear and there's nothing to distinguish them. Again, all I'm suggesting is that it would have been about a million times better to have actually listed a model's wargear in the datasheet rather than mixing wargear and fluff in the same section.

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