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 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!

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Count Adhemar
CptMetal
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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeMon May 29 2017, 23:50

The Tao of Tau: https://imgur.com/a/BdEhR
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 02:33

The rebalancing was more aggressive than I thought it would be. Broadside suits got much, much more expensive (albeit with an increase in killing power and survivability). I'm actually imagining that there are some cases when you might want to field Vespids, as insane as that seems.
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Xivai
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 03:09

Yep Tau are dead. Consider the fact that vehicles with smoke give them BS of 5+ ork level shooting. They need to have 5ML to get that back to 4+ with rerolling one's. Ork shooting faction here we come. Supposed to be one of the shootiest facitons and now can't hit the broad side of a barn.

Can't do melee.

Vespid is our all star unit for its price. Also Sunshark bombers which do mortal wounds. Riptides and Ghostkeels will also still be bitched at since they can get stim injectors that lets them ignore wounds on 6+ and is in additon to their saves. They can also take an upgrade to increase their rend by -1. These are the only real viable units and honestly they're not that good because most of them will be firing at bs 4-5+. Tau are dead.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 06:31

Are you kidding?!? Tau are very viable once you realise the points of the average game will be 2000+

The fact drones have to be killed before anything else is a huge advantage for the big suits

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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 06:48

One of my (friends? can we call tau players friends?) says, that tau now will rock this place. He counted pts for units\wargear for his army and was totaly happy. He also was quite happy with nerf of Evas and warp spiders

Personaly i think that warp spiders probably even better, just need to know point cost

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Xivai
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 07:11

The cheapest drone is 8 points. Your just sinking more and more into a sunk cost of the insane crisis suit cost crisis suit or whatever your adding to it.

A crisis suit with 3 plasma guns is now 75 points alone. Add in whatever support systems you give him and say two drones each can easily 96+ points. Almost as much as a predator tank with lascannons, but it's going to get owned by that things firepower.

Hitting on a 4+. And some tanks and vehicles have smoke launchers reducing his BS to 5+ which is terrible. The Predator tank also has longer range than him and will destroy him so easily it's not funny.

Then whatever units survive the shooting phase will have to contend with melee and it's all over.

Tau are simply not putting out enough firepower. I think they've been over nerfed from what I've seen. When the 15 point vespid is probably one of the best units in our codex now for points efficiency and damage something somewhere has gone horribly wrong.

For 360 points 3 max squads of vespids will put out 48 shots of STR 5 -2 d1 shots and can deep strike like crisis teams. The crisis team simply can't even compete against that. Barring needing to shoot stuff only a str 6 gun can wound which is niche. Vespids are also faster than crisis too.

Crisis team of three with two drones each 7 wounds per model. Vespid squad 8. Granted the crisis suit's shooting doesn't degrade as it loses wounds. Still it might get off one more round of shooting than the Vespid, but it still is putting out like... 18 shots twice maybe so 36. Way less than the Vespid.
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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 07:26

the thing I don't understand is whey are fire warriors as fast as a SPEES MAHRINE? mean they're like genetically modified super soldier and the little fishes are just as fast? (pathfinders are actually FASTER than spees mehreens)

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Xivai
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 07:28

Have you ever outrun a goat?
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hekatrixxy
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 08:05

The mood on the ATT forums seems to be either very salty or neutral. Very few people seem to be happy with these changes compared to the other units that have already been leaked.

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Xivai
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 08:23

@hekatrixxy wrote:
The mood on the ATT forums seems to be either very salty or neutral. Very few people seem to be happy with these changes compared to the other units that have already been leaked.
Yep not just there all over is mad. The only positive thread I seen on reddit is like the secondary discussion of the Tau rules but it's so tiny compared to all the hate everywhere else out there.

I agree. I think these changes are making Tau way too weak.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 08:42

All your units can fall back out of combat and act normally?
Well. All flying ones.
That's a huge buff for example?

So please stop your crying and play the game first or if you think that they'll suck, sell me your army your a discount.
Well
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Xivai
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 09:17

No Tau unit will survive melee after being weakened. Not with the high damage stuff I've been seeing.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 10:01

There seems to be a bit of confusion over points cost. The list in the codex says the point cost excludes wargear and drones so people are saying that, for example, a Pathfinder is listed at 5 points but then needs to buy a markerlight, pulse carbine and photon grenades (+3 points) in order to have the wargear that is shown on their datasheet. I can absolutely see why people would think this but I don't actually think that's what is supposed to happen. The datasheet lists what each model come with as standard and I don't think you have to buy that gear. You still have to buy any extra gear you take but if you replace A with B then you deduct the cost of A and add the cost of B.

Take a Broadside, for example. The model is shown as 80 points and comes with a Heavy Rail Rifle and 2 x SMS. If you have to buy that wargear then the Broadside costs 183 points, which is more than a winged Daemon Prince! The base 80 points though is roughly on a par with a basic Chaos Lord. Which do we think is more likely?

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 10:35

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Which do we think is more likely?

There's really no ambiguity about it, its written right there, in the Index on the Tau Empire Points Values page: "If you are playing a match play game, or a game that uses points limits... Simply add together the points values of all your models, as well as the wargear they are equipped with.." (same thing in the other leaks)

It even reiterates this in the "unit" points profiles: "points per model (Does not include wargear or Drones)"

So a single broadside will cost 80pts/model + 63pts/hvy rail rifle + (20pts/Smart Missile System *2) = 163

You can then take either 2x tac drones (various points values) or 2x missile drones at 20pts/drone (but you can allocate all wounds to your drones if thye are w/in 3" of the tau model being targeted).

What do you get for that? 2x 30" hvy4, St5 shots that can target anything within range, regardless of LoS (so indirect fire with no scatter) and ignores any cover modifiers + a 60" hvy 2, st9, Ap-4, Dmg D6 (wound rolls of 6= mortal wounds) firing platform on a T5, 6W, 2+ save model. Stick this guy in the backfield and let him do his thing with some markerlight support (yea, you need 5 to get a 3+ to hit, but they cost 10pts each, with a 36" range and a 4++).

Tau definitely arent dead.... idk how people can claim that already when weve seen, what, 70% of 2 or 3 factions?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 10:46

@RoadRageRob666 wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Which do we think is more likely?

There's really no ambiguity about it

I'd disagree. Where on the datasheet does it say what a model's wargear is? If a datasheet had a separate section for wargear that listed, using Pathfinders for example, markerlight, pulse carbine and photon grenades with options for changing some or all of them then I would agree. But that's not the case.

Now it may well turn out that it works the way you say. But a single Broadside for virtually the same cost as a Land Raider? Doesn't seem likely to me. We'll have to wait and see.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 11:19

The data sheet lists the power level weapons - I agree that this is the way it works and a quad las pred is 200+ points, the land raider is 350ish and so on.

That said, we have not seen the full context of the rules

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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 11:28

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'd disagree. Where on the datasheet does it say what a model's wargear is?

The block of text directly underneath the models stats: "...Each broadside battle suit is equipped with a heavy rail rifle and two smart missile systems..."

Then theirs a separate section literally titles "Wargear Options" that lists what can be subbed for what.

I mean, everything is literally *right* there lol. Heres the specific page for the Broadside: https://i.imgur.com/fOaC2wa.jpg

and here is the page for the page detailing points costs: https://i.imgur.com/bANsaxo.jpg

all of this was in the original like that I posted up, lol.

CSM Land Raiders are 239 points *without* any wargear, here is the article: https://imgur.com/a/kPLQc . Theyll likely end up being over 350 with their stock guns.

We know how it works man, we have the actual Index entries, again, there's no ambiguity to it, just look at the posts, my friend!


Edit: if you need more evidence, here are the SM/BA leaks (much more legible), you should be able to figure it out from this! https://imgur.com/a/X7xLA
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 12:12

None of which addresses the point that I raised. The block of text underneath the stats says what the model is equipped with. At no point is that described as the model's wargear, hence an ambiguity.

I fully accept that I may end up being wrong about this but I'm going to keep an open mind until I see something definitive, not least because it's a bleedin' stupid way of doing it and I struggle to see any benefit in doing it that way.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 12:47

Lol, its mind-boggling how something so simple can cause such confusion, but you do you, good Sir, I was just trying to help. Smile
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 12:52

What's mind-boggling is why they felt the urge to do it this way but then changed the datasheets from the 7e version that would have been so much clearer if that was their intent!

UNIT TYPE:
UNIT COMPOSITION:
WARGEAR:
SPECIAL RULES:
OPTIONS:

Keep the datasheets like that and it's all crystal clear. Better still, give a points cost that includes the wargear that every model comes with by default! Mad

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 13:43

The problem with a points cost for a unit that includes base Wargear cost is that it forces you to either:
a) put the points cost for every upgrade item on the data sheet
b) let the items sit where they may and try to pick a middle ground when choosing points costs for upgrade options.

For example: assume a Darklance is worth 20points with its S8, AP-4, DmgD6, Heavy 1, 36".
Then assume a Splijter Rifle is worth 3 points with its wound on a 4+ against non-vehicles, AP(hopefully)-1, S1, Rapid Fire, 24".

Now, if a Kabalite Warrior pays 7 points for a stat line of M8", WS/BS3+, S/T3, W1, A1, Ld8, Sv5+, PfP and any other abilities, then a Kabalite Warrior carrying a Splinter Rifle should be worth 10 points, yes?
And a Kabalite Warrior carrying a Darklance is worth 27 points.

Assuming everything is priced correctly in proportion to all other possible models in the game, this is balanced.

Now, if a Kabalite Warrior carrying a Splinter Rifle is listed as 10 points base, then what happens?  That's fine, isn't it?

But what if you give this model a Dark Lance?  Well, now it's 30 points and overpriced.
The answer there is to drop 3 points off the cost of a Darklance, yeah?

But what if a Scourge trades a 4 point Shardcarbine in for one?  Then that Scourge is overcosted by one point, and if you fix the issue there by making a Dark Lance 16 points, then a Kabalite Warrior with a Darklance is suddenly undercosted at 26 points.

Game breaking?

Probably not.

But by having the models abilities, stats and faction priced separately to its Wargear, we are granted a greater level of granularity when costing things.

And thus (if implemented correctly) better balancing.

I'd expect list building in future to look like this:

10 Kabalite Warriors, 8 Splinter Rifles, 1 Blaster, 1 Dark Lance.  129 points (assuming Blaster is 15 points)

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 13:55

Yet it looks like the wargear lists include everything, even items that cost nothing (photon grenades, pulse carbines, Kroot gun etc on the Tau lists). So, using your figures for arguments sake, a Kabalite Warrior who swaps his Splinter Rifle for a Dark Lance still pays the same (27 points) as he's not paying anything for most of his default gear anyway. Just strikes me as a stupidly convoluted way of doing it. You could look at a list and see a cost per model and actually use that value, rather than then having to look at the datasheet, see what the default wargear is, look that up on a different chart, do the maths and finally work out how much the unit actually costs!

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 14:05

Ow and this is not even mentioning the fact that the price of the weapon should change in some cases.
2X eviscerator sword cost the same for a ws3+ s4 space marine as it does for a ws4+s3 adeptas sororita. Here we can all agree that the space marine get's way more bang for it's buck. Even if the base model is more expensive, the cheap stuf will always pay overprice for the larger equipment or the other way around.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 14:08

Double post, btw.

Actual point now:

Yes, I can see why you would want it to just be a case of look at the datasheet for the unit cost. But that's what power levels and filthy!casual play is for. If you want to balance, then every weapon, every piece of Wargear, needs to have its own points cost. One of the things discussed by GeeDubs (and their marketing hoard) is the plans for a fluid, and frequently balanced set of points costs.

If it turns out that a Riptide itself is overcosted, but all of the weapons are fine, then the Riptide's point cost can be decreased. If, for example, photon grenades turn out to massively impact Assault Armies (unlikely, but hey), then the cost can be upped to one.

It allows granularity, which, as said above, allows for balancing.

I do find it moronic that there is anything with a price of zero points though. Something that doesn't cost anything should be purely aesthetic and have no influence on gameplay. That or not have a points cost.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Full Tau Rules Set!   8e - Full Tau Rules Set! I_icon_minitimeTue May 30 2017, 14:40

@Ikol wrote:

Yes, I can see why you would want it to just be a case of look at the datasheet for the unit cost. But that's what power levels and filthy!casual play is for. If you want to balance, then every weapon, every piece of Wargear, needs to have its own points cost. One of the things discussed by GeeDubs (and their marketing hoard) is the plans for a fluid, and frequently balanced set of points costs.

Someone give this gentleman two cups of tea!
I still remember when I compared our 26 pts Scourge with Heatlance and 22 pts Fire dragon and asked WHY I SHOULD PAY SO MUCH FOR A WEAPON, WHICH SHOULD BE DEFAULT? Why the fire Dragons who are more resilent and deadly don't pay anything? As I remember, a shard carabine costs 5 pts when you give it to a trueborn. Why the Heatlance doesn't cost 5 pts less? Why I can't keep my poison gun and the Heatlance?
So many questions.

The new point cost system is more transparent. Maybe it's a bit confusing to count everything. But hey, it's obvious that we will get calculation services in a couple of months.

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