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Thor665
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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 14:12

Can a Wave Serpent tank shock a unit of Warriors if a Raider is in front of the warriors? The BRB says you hit the first unit and/or stop if you come within an inch of a vehicle but as the Wave Serpent is a skimmer can it go over the Raider?

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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 14:49

In my opinion, a Skimmer can move over terrain and units, and therefore does not make contact with those units. As such, a Skimmer can choose which unit it first makes contact with when tank shock-ing/ramming.

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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 15:59

no they can not. As per tank shocking rules you go in a straight line and come into contact with the first unit you hit. So by turn if the wave serpent declares tank shocking and his distance, then you move, see he hits the raider first, and you then resolve the ram. The warriors are safe... for now Razz

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Cailos
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 16:06

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
no they can not. As per tank shocking rules you go in a straight line and come into contact with the first unit you hit. So by turn if the wave serpent declares tank shocking and his distance, then you move, see he hits the raider first, and you then resolve the ram. The warriors are safe... for now Razz
But under the rules for skimmers they can fly over unit, vehicles, and terrian when they make a movement and tank shocking and ramming is a movement.
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 16:10

I argued this to death in the tantalus tactica but am big enough to say I was wrong.

The BRB FAQ covers s situation that is only possible IF you can fly over other units...

Q: If a skimmer is forced to stop moving by a Death or Glory! attack whilst over a friendly or enemy model what happens? (p71)
A: Move the skimmer the shortest possible distance so that it is no longer over any models.

So when reading this combined with the tank shock/ram rules, the only way this can take place is if a skimmer CAN jump units while tank shocking

So yes, you can jump - I was wrong

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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 16:17

@Massaen wrote:
I argued this to death in the tantalus tactica but am big enough to say I was wrong.

The BRB FAQ covers s situation that is only possible IF you can fly over other units...

Q: If a skimmer is forced to stop moving by a Death or Glory! attack whilst over a friendly or enemy model what happens? (p71)
A: Move the skimmer the shortest possible distance so that it is no longer over any models.

So when reading this combined with the tank shock/ram rules, the only way this can take place is if a skimmer CAN jump units while tank shocking

So yes, you can jump - I was wrong
That was noble of you to say that can put proof you were.
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 17:04

It took AGES to find it as its not exactly the situation we are discussing but it sets a precedent that is only possible if you can fly over.

Its been bugging me since that discussion about the tantalus and i stubbled over it...

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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 19:17

Very noble, not just admitting, but being one that found the evidence, many kudos for that.


Last edited by abjectus on Tue Oct 18 2011, 19:20; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixed typo)
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 20:16

I actually have a counter to this (dont have my rulebook as I am at work, so will check when I get home)

As for friendly models, they are ignored for tank shock, so there would be multiple instances of them being under the skimmer when rammed

As for enemy models, take for an example of a chimera surrounded by guardsmen. Your raider declares a tank shock and ram. You move it to the guardsmen, they dont Death or Glory, and are left there because they pass their moral. Then your tank hits the chimera. All of a sudden the guardsmen are under your transport. They are then moved out of the way as per the tank shocking rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 20:29

I don't think that would allow you to fly over a raider and tank shock the troops behind it. I would have thought that the point of that FAQ is to stop confusion as to which units are in combat.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about this because my BRB isn't handy. Don't you have to; state range, move model into base contact with first unit, resolve tank shock/death and glory. If the death and glory is passed it will leave some of the hull floating over models which may or may not fit or be confused as in combat?

I would say the FAQ isn't enough to support flying over another tank because either way you can't, not come within 1in of it if you're flying over.

Shadows ninja'd me and explained it better than I did here.
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 20:37

How does the FAQ not say that you can fly over other models? That is the only way you are going to be other a friendly or enemy model when Death or Gloried. And if you tank shock a unit and they pass the morale test they are moved before the tank shocking vehicle continues the movement so it can't be over them.
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 20:56

How does it say you can?

If there are lots of models close together or if you tank shock through a unit but don't have enough movement to get past the unit or as Shadows say, go through a unit and hit a tank right behind them. There are many situations it could happen, the back of your raider might end up over your own units if they are contesting an objective you are trying to tanks shock an opponent off, shall I go on? There are many ways it could end up over an enemy or friendly model, I'm not sitting here all night trying to think of possible situations but I'm sure you can come up with some more. Either way, whatever happens you can't fly over that tank because that's what the rules say.
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 21:03

There are no situations where the back of your model ends up over your own units unless you're allowed to move over them via skimmer rules.

"Remember, though, that friendly models still cannot be
moved through, so a tank shock cannot be attempted
if friendly models are in the way."

But yet there are rules clarifying what happens if a skimmer has to stop a tank shock while over friendly models. Ergo you can move over intervening models via skimmer rules, ergo yes, you can tank shock a unit behind another unit without having to ram/tank shock it if you're a skimmer.

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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 21:05

@Archon Mephitic wrote:
How does it say you can?

If there are lots of models close together or if you tank shock through a unit but don't have enough movement to get past the unit or as Shadows say, go through a unit and hit a tank right behind them. There are many situations it could happen, the back of your raider might end up over your own units if they are contesting an objective you are trying to tanks shock an opponent off, shall I go on? There are many ways it could end up over an enemy or friendly model, I'm not sitting here all night trying to think of possible situations but I'm sure you can come up with some more. Either way, whatever happens you can't fly over that tank because that's what the rules say.
What rules say you can't fly over the tank? You mean the rule under Skimmers about that they can move over units, vehicles, or terrian when they make a movement and tank shocking and ramming is a movement. No that proves my point. So what rules would state that...... study .........there doesn't seem to be one weird.
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 21:12

Ok, so one of my examples was wrong.

How would you move over a tank or another skimer without coming into 1in of it though? Over/through infantry models yes because you are doing a tank shock.
I'm also arguing without my rulebook so I might very well be wrong but aren't tank shocks and rams technically 2 different things?
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 21:21

@Archon Mephitic wrote:
Ok, so one of my examples was wrong.

How would you move over a tank or another skimer without coming into 1in of it though? Over/through infantry models yes because you are doing a tank shock.
I'm also arguing without my rulebook so I might very well be wrong but aren't tank shocks and rams technically 2 different things?
They are in that they affect two different types of models but they take the same movement to do. So you can tank shock and go with a ram with the same movement.

When you move with a skimmer you can pass over vehicles and units without coming into contact with them. You can even stop over vehicles, units, and terrians aswell. If you can put your model up their then you can. You will have to do a diffult terrian test with the Skimmer and if you get immoblise you are destroyed I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 21:30

I agree that a skimmer using the tank shock/ram move can fly over things. I don't agree that it is flying more than an inch over. The word skim itself means 'to pass or glide lightly over or near a surface.' Now we need somewhere in the rulebook telling us how near the surface they are actually flying. It doesn't though so is it scraping along the top of the other skimmer or is it jumping 200ft up and over?
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 21:33

@Archon Mephitic wrote:
I agree that a skimmer using the tank shock/ram move can fly over things. I don't agree that it is flying more than an inch over. The word skim itself means 'to pass or glide lightly over or near a surface.' Now we need somewhere in the rulebook telling us how near the surface they are actually flying. It doesn't though so is it scraping along the top of the other skimmer or is it jumping 200ft up and over?
I would say reality that it would be flying over it just enought to not hit it. If its not ramming the vehicle it doesn't need to be that close but it doesn't need to use alot of energy to get a long way away either.
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 21:35

@Archon Mephitic wrote:
I agree that a skimmer using the tank shock/ram move can fly over things. I don't agree that it is flying more than an inch over. The word skim itself means 'to pass or glide lightly over or near a surface.' Now we need somewhere in the rulebook telling us how near the surface they are actually flying. It doesn't though so is it scraping along the top of the other skimmer or is it jumping 200ft up and over?
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By this logic how can a skimmer *ever* pass over another unit?

"Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models,
but they cannot end their move on top of either."

It doesn't matter how theoretically far they are (though I suppose theoretically they are further than one inch from them) skimmers are specifically allowed to move over enemy and friendly models while moving.

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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 21:41

@Thor665 wrote:
@Archon Mephitic wrote:
I agree that a skimmer using the tank shock/ram move can fly over things. I don't agree that it is flying more than an inch over. The word skim itself means 'to pass or glide lightly over or near a surface.' Now we need somewhere in the rulebook telling us how near the surface they are actually flying. It doesn't though so is it scraping along the top of the other skimmer or is it jumping 200ft up and over?
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By this logic how can a skimmer *ever* pass over another unit?

"Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models,
but they cannot end their move on top of either."

It doesn't matter how theoretically far they are (though I suppose theoretically they are further than one inch from them) skimmers are specifically allowed to move over enemy and friendly models while moving.
Oh they can't stop over unit I thought they could stop over impassble terrian and units and vehicles were impassble terrian.
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 21:46

@Thor665 wrote:
By this logic how can a skimmer *ever* pass over another unit?

By logic a flickerfield doesn't work.

It does matter how far away they are, this is the crux of the arguement. Ok then, even if it does float more than an inch away we have to draw a straight line to the target. Is that in 3 dimensions or just looking down. If just top down then there are no problems, it's not a top down game though so the line over the other skimmer to the unit would be a curve. And how close does our skimmer get before taking off and landing on the other side?


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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 21:49

@Archon Mephitic wrote:

It does matter how far away they are, this is the crux of the arguement. Ok then, even if it does float more than an inch away we have to draw a straight line to the target. Is that in 3 dimensions or just looking down. If just top down then there are no problems, it's not a top down game though so the line over the other skimmer to the unit would be a curve. And how close does our skimmer get before taking off and landing on the other side?
I don't remember but I think I read a FAQ about where straight line was only meant for moving to the target so you couldn't do a turn to tank shock a unit or something. I will look it up.
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 22:02

Ok, I'll agree with that one. I know there's a Bladevabe FAQ that says mark the start and end points, but then, that does you out if you want to Bladevane a unit and change direction.

Anyway, back on topic. How close does our skimmer get to the other vehicle before it ignores it? I'd say we would have to be pretty close or there would be no need to ignore anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 19 2011, 01:18

You don't form a curve when moving a Skimmer. They have their maximum movement value, which doesn't include vertical movement. If they move over a 3" high impassable wall, you don't detract movement to take into account the height, they simply go over it. That's how Skimmers work, and I don't think I've ever seen someone try to argue otherwise. As such, the same thing goes for moving over enemy units.
For the purpose of simplicity in the game rules, the movement of a Skimmer is taken to simply be a straight line when measured, even if the "actual" movement of the Skimmer isn't.

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PostSubject: Re: Tank Shock and Skimmers   Tank Shock and Skimmers I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 19 2011, 02:00

^^^
This.
Here are relevant quotes;

"As normal for vehicles, distances
are measured to and from the skimmer’s hull, with the
exceptions of the vehicle’s weapons, access points and
fire points, which all work as normal."

"Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models,
but they cannot end their move on top of either. Note
that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left
in place at the end of its move – it cannot be left
hovering in mid-air!"

"Skimmers can move over all terrain, ignoring all
penalties for difficult terrain and tests for dangerous
terrain."

So - distance is measured from hull - you measure to where you want to move, and they move over all terrain and friendly and enemy models when they move - no effect on their movement at all.

For end positions they need to obey most rules - 1" distance, can't be on top of enemy/friendly models, if they're in terrain they're effected. But during the course of the move you can say they're 12' away or .01" away - it really doesn't matter because it has no effect on anything.

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