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 The Necrontyr Threat

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 30 2011, 17:45

The Command Barge's fixed roll to hit reminds me of Kharn the Betrayr form the Chaos codex, who always hits on 2+ in cc. People used him to hunt skimmers untill ti got FAQd to only work on models with weapon skill. I expect the same to happen here (then again, this is Matt Ward, so perhaps I shouldn't expect it to follow logic). Don't think the Barge actually has any guns itself (the Annihilation Barge, which use the same chassis, does but it can't carry caharcters). It's still quite powerful, but also means you're placing your Overlord alone inside an open-topped transport, which will after receiving one penetrating hit be more vulnerable than our Ravagers does seem a bit risky. If/when it gets blown up, the lord is stuck in the open, getting shot at by every high str low ap weapon in range.

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Smurfy
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 30 2011, 17:54

I donno about that scenario, the other implication is you can do it when Flat Out'ing and a 3+ Cover Save on AV 13 is pretty enticing. (Though against us we'll only be annoyed at the fact he might get this fixed roll-to-hit stuff, we can deal with "AV 13" with Lances) Yes it has a gun, helps to check the website for this: Tesla cannon; Otherwise the rumour (confirmed btw) that the Lord can repair his vehicle on the fly by sacrificing wounds would be moot.

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 30 2011, 19:10

Yep, the command barge has the same tesla cannon, that the annihilation barge has and it can exchange it for a gauss cannon, too. Since the immortal's tesla carbine is rumored to be S 5, this will probably be stronger, so it's very capable.

What's notable in my opinion is that the leaked page shows the barge as being fast, while the official GW profile does not, so it is possible, that it got changed.
Maybe it's just a typo on the site, though.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 30 2011, 19:23

I was reading the rules on the GW site and thinking 'Crons have failed their Mat Ward save' I play crons, I love crons. But they seem like they have been ratcheted up to be 'strong' seeing as they are not that popular.
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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 30 2011, 20:37

It seems we just have to remember target priorities against the necrons. Taking out things that will mess with our Skimmers first. I could see a Duke all reserve list doing well against any lists using the storm lord since it will minimize there 1st turn.

Fighting there troops defiantly don't seem to be a huge problem with the amount of CC and shooting we can pour onto an enemy. I didn't see anything with a higher I2 so CC seems to be there large weakness again.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 30 2011, 23:22

I wouldn't be worried about any of this unless its all way underpriced points wise. None of it sounds worse to face than Psyriflemen spam or IG with 16 tanks. If anything , I think the Necrons dropping will hurt us most because armies good at fighting Necrons will be really good at fighting us.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 31 2011, 02:20

Uh, I think it means there will be lots of Necron noobs to munch on for a while.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 31 2011, 11:35

Does Matt Ward really hate DE or something? It's like he's looked at our list and thought "Incubi... two handed power weapons that give plus one to your strength of 3? Well bam, here's the Lychguard, strength 5 with two handed power weapons that improve strength by 2. A Ravager that can fire all weapons when moving at cruising speed? Haha, can't fire them all at different targets though, can it? Hmmm, best beef up that armour too. Armour ten open-topped vehicles? Lightning strike! Oh yeah, and I best make the guy who can do that and force you to fight in the dark cheaper than Asdrubael Vect too."

A friend seems to think that Imotekh can also take a command barge, which would be a bit daft. Either a special character has a special transport (like the Dais of Destruction), or they're in a unit with one, or they don't have one. You can't just decide they can take their own, that's like saying Ghazghkull Thraka can take a bike.

Bits of this codex just seem to break the rules a bit rather than working within them, which to me is a sign of lazy rule making.

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Urien Rakarth
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 31 2011, 14:39

@Mr Believer wrote:

Bits of this codex just seem to break the rules a bit rather than working within them, which to me is a sign of lazy rule making.

It's not just lazy rule making, it's a sign of a Mat Ward Codex, he is not happy unless he creates a unit that doesn't ignore at least one part of the core rules (like the unit that can deep strike, not scatter and assault on the turn they arrive if you buy a certain upgrade).
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SirTainly
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 31 2011, 14:56

AFAIK the named lords can take the command chariot.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 31 2011, 15:26

Additionally, he reckoned you could use the sweep attack from the command barge to allocate damage to your choice of model within the unit, meaning it can fly by, snipe your independent character or squad leader out of the unit, then decimate the rest of the unit with shooting from elsewhere. He better not be able to kill an IC in the movement phase then disembark and charge. That'd be ludicrous, seeing as he's making his combat attacks in the sweep so shouldn't be able to make even more in the assault phase. But who knows?

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SirTainly
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 31 2011, 17:02

Haven't seen that rule anywhere but it's a Wardex so who knows?

Edit to add :

Here are the rules as posted at dakka

------------------------------
Catacomb Command Barge: Open-topped fast skimmer that is a one-man vehicle for most ICs. AV11 with quantum shielding & living metal. Also the character can lose wounds to negate immobilized or weapon destroyed results. Also has a Tesla Cannon (which can be upgraded to a Gauss Cannon). Can make 3 sweep attacks over a single enemy unit it passes over when it moves (vehicles are hit on their back armor). These attacks hit on a 3+ at combat speed, 4+ otherwise. On a to hit roll of '6' you choose which model in the unit his hit by the attack.

When you combine this Sweep Attack with the S7 attacks most ICs have with a Warscythe (for example), this could potentially be a bit nasty…note that Trazyn's special ability to nuke all the same type of model in a unit will not work as a sweep attack because of the way it is written (he needs to be locked in combat to use it).
-------------------------------

So yes it can snipe ICs but only if you roll a 6.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 31 2011, 23:37

Awesome. So it's not even a case of "Anything you can do I do better." More a case of "Anything you can't do at all, I can. Har har."

In an amusing twist, I was trying to come up with rules for a stupidly over powered special character, just to use as a joke thing between friends, and he wasn't as good as some of these...

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 01 2011, 01:21

Lol.

More I read rules, more I actually think those guys gonna... suck. Seriously. Most of their foot units would be allowed to take 200+ point transporter only (with no model). If rumors are correct, that one actually be like Land Rider, except it suck ^2. No fire ports, not "assault" vehicle.
Also, they hit like a girls (and fact that our CC girls are good don't help them, at all) so if You can get to them (and if they are on foot it should not be a problem)...

Flyed ones... wow. Just wow. A lot like Ork Kammandoes, except without guns, numbers/low point cost, decent CC weapons AND neat SC.

Anyway I'm gonna wait for codex. Then I may give more accurate opinion...

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 01 2011, 03:11

more sad panda news, the cryptek for 60 points allows the stormlord to reroll his chance to continue night fighting, and hence lightning strikes.. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 01 2011, 03:15

^ What Local_Ork said. As much as the Barge shenanigans are there, at most how many can we expect? 2? (1 for each Overlord) Nothing else in the stuff I've read reads as anti-tank capable as the Barge. I'm sure Heavy Destroyers still have Lascannons, but aside from them, what, glance vehicles to death AGAIN? (Or hope to CC 'em with the new CC units, maybe?)

I don't care about the Lightning Strikes. You take him out, what unit seems hard as nails to hide him in? Njal Stormcaller has the same issues but he can hide in a huge Dog (Wolf) unit or a big 2+/3++ blob if he needs to.
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 01 2011, 04:46

Ignoring the barge, the lightning is a big deal...approx 15% chance on each vehicle is bad. He could be hidden in a unit with the 2+ reflective shields, or hidden out of LOS..which he doesn't need to have to use the lighting.


Edit to say I never worry about Wolves since no one plays them much (only know of one guy who does).
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 01 2011, 10:46

If silver would be new black, I would be more than happy to make IG foot army.

I also think that WWP would be vary annoying for Crons.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 01 2011, 13:10

From reading this month's White Dwarf and the various necron tomfoolery doing the rounds I am very much of the conclusion we need to hammer them in combat. Problem is getting there, all that shooting is going to hurt something and that lightning douchebaggery ignores our normal tactic of running and hiding until we strike. I like the WWP idea against them but you have a chance to lose your transports turn 1 with some bad rolls (bear in mind that each unit that does get hit with lightning is on average taking three hits, more than enough to do damage to our fragile boats) and you could end up pretty much having lost the game T1.

Sure it won't happen very often but I don't find the chance that my army could be completely neutered from the off as a very fun game.
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 01 2011, 13:41

You'd have to hope that the stormlord will only be taken in tournament environments?

Otherwise, I think it will be a case of, in some cases, just saying "well done, you win. lets redeploy and start again"
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 01 2011, 13:45

@Smurfy wrote:
^ What Local_Ork said. As much as the Barge shenanigans are there, at most how many can we expect? 2? (1 for each Overlord) Nothing else in the stuff I've read reads as anti-tank capable as the Barge. I'm sure Heavy Destroyers still have Lascannons, but aside from them, what, glance vehicles to death AGAIN? (Or hope to CC 'em with the new CC units, maybe?)

Yes two would be the maximum. But I have to dissent, that there is nothing cappable of AT besides the Barge. I don't know about heavy destroyers, but I think they are still tankhunters.
There's of course the doomsday ark, that with S9 or 7 can take out vehicles reliantly. The doom scythe with a S10 AP1 weapon. A stalker with a S8 heavy2 melta weapon. Lychguard, that can take the same Warscythes and of course various cryptek and C'tan powers.


@Smurfy wrote:
I don't care about the Lightning Strikes. You take him out, what unit seems hard as nails to hide him in? Njal Stormcaller has the same issues but he can hide in a huge Dog (Wolf) unit or a big 2+/3++ blob if he needs to.

He himself has a 2+ save, can take a barge and hide in a blob of praetorians, probably out of range and sight, too. Of course he's vulnerable, but not more than any other IC.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 01 2011, 13:47

oh and remember for AT, the entropic strike rule that weakens your AV.

"Entropic Strike is a new rules accessable to several units in the codex. Against infantry on to-wound rolls of 4+, armor saves are ignored (Invulnerables allowed). Against vehicles on armor penetration rolls, each die that rolls a 4+, reduces the vehicle's armor by 1 pt on ALL sides for the rest of the game."
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 01 2011, 17:54

@Tiri Rana wrote:
@Smurfy wrote:
^ What Local_Ork said. As much as the Barge shenanigans are there, at most how many can we expect? 2? (1 for each Overlord) Nothing else in the stuff I've read reads as anti-tank capable as the Barge. I'm sure Heavy Destroyers still have Lascannons, but aside from them, what, glance vehicles to death AGAIN? (Or hope to CC 'em with the new CC units, maybe?)

Yes two would be the maximum. But I have to dissent, that there is nothing cappable of AT besides the Barge. I don't know about heavy destroyers, but I think they are still tankhunters.
There's of course the doomsday ark, that with S9 or 7 can take out vehicles reliantly. The doom scythe with a S10 AP1 weapon. A stalker with a S8 heavy2 melta weapon. Lychguard, that can take the same Warscythes and of course various cryptek and C'tan powers.


@Smurfy wrote:
I don't care about the Lightning Strikes. You take him out, what unit seems hard as nails to hide him in? Njal Stormcaller has the same issues but he can hide in a huge Dog (Wolf) unit or a big 2+/3++ blob if he needs to.

He himself has a 2+ save, can take a barge and hide in a blob of praetorians, probably out of range and sight, too. Of course he's vulnerable, but not more than any other IC.

Doomsday Ark with a scattering blast? You guys remember how reliable scattering blasts are for anti-tank duty, right? If not try using Fire Prisms for anti-tank duty as Eldar.

Doom Scythe - Ok cool but sounds like it's short ranged? BTW how does 3D6 feel about Night Shields?

Crypteks with various gear - Yes, this the ambiguous one, hoping for anti-tank guns from guys either consolidated into one place (Erp - Fire Dragons) or spread out (Now that's better) is anyone's guess. I'm going off what we know.

Tombstalker with a Heavy 2 Melta weapon. Problem is in the weapon profile - Heavy weapon. if it's on a mobile unit however, oh me, another place for my anti-tank to go over the Barges.

Warscythes - Outside the Barge use, 6+ to hit is a wonderful thing. Not worried terribly much.

C'Tan Shards - Betcha they're expensive and CC? 6+ to hit again.

Survivability wise for Stormlord - 2+ Save/4+ Invul I'm guessing. Are Praetorians 2+ too? then that's a decent bunker for him but I think the key thing is - Not everyone is going to take him I think. if he's out of sight, what are you on about you're the most mobile force in the game, You can get anywhere on the board or visual of it within 2 turns, lol. You may be "suicidal" going all in hunting him down but apparently he's that scary enough for me to take the gamble and invest my firepower and sweep out after he's taken care of.

So after all that we have ~3 things that are separate anti tank that could be (Many more in Crypteks, if they're scattered throughout the army), as "anti-tank capable" Without knowledge on the Crypteks at all, everything else means easy target priority and/or gotta re-asses other armies anti-tank capabilities.

We Dark Eldar can put Anti-Tank into every slot.
So Can Marines generally of any kind - every slot.
Tau Empire - Every slot.
Orks - Every slot.
Chaos Space Marines - Every slot.
Hell even Daemons get Bolts around the whole army if they like. (Though 1 shot a unit isn't reliable and Daemons suck at anti-tank)

And to reinforce: I'm just going off what we *know* so this is by no means final, but I'm so far not really scared for my Raiders/Ravagers/Venoms lives and definitely not for any mechanized army out there so far.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 01 2011, 18:38

You forgot Guard, which can easily put large numbers of S8+ and/or melta weapons into every slot, as well. From what I'm seeing thus far, it looks like Necrons will be struggling against Guard mechanized and airborne lists.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 01 2011, 18:39

Heh, IG, oh woe how did I forget you, lol.
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