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 The Necrontyr Threat

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 10 2011, 04:32

@Thor665 wrote:
::shrug:: Really, nothing matters much in my mind until we get to see them about a month from now when their power builds are coming into their own and we get to see how they interact with the other power builds.

I remember when IG were all that and DE had to cope.
I remember when BA were all that and DE had to cope.
I remember when SW were (are) all that and DE had to cope.
And currently GK are all that and we are having to cope.

You know what the consistent thing was? Through all of that we were always listed as 3rd or 4th best codex - and that's because our codex is inherently solid and has a lot of flexability. Will Necrons require us to learn to play versus a new army? Most assuredly. Will they redefine the meta enough that we'll need to adjust our power builds in any way to deal with them? Meh...I currently have doubts. Hell, some DE didn't even adjust for the GKs which I think required it, I suspect this will end up being a slight burp on the radar and little else. In six months I'd lay even odds it's not even a thing.
Amen to all of that. Every codex presents a bit of what the you know what before players adapt. I'm playing a long time Necron player that is pleased, but not over the top pumped about the new codex. He's pretty solid with the old list, and tells me that he might have a trick or two for me. I'll believe it when I see it.

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Mathial
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 10 2011, 09:33

Dunno if anyone's mentioned this weird little combo in their book yet that i've discovered.

The terrain hax setup utilizing crypteks with with tremorstaves in conjunction with C'Tan with Writhing Worldscape, giving them the ability to "shoot" your units with Dangerous Terrain. The timelord guy actually can be used with this C'Tan too for a global first turn dangerous terrain check [Should anyone want to ever take him]. Its definitely an interesting idea though with vehicle meta dunno how effective it'd really be *shrugs*.


Ok it has been mentioned a bit but meh theres the combo thinger anyways.
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 10 2011, 12:18

From the wording, the special character's ability wouldn't work with the C'tan ability, as the latter makes all difficult terrain dangerous (note: nothing on units taking difficult terrain tests also having to take dangerous terrain tests), while the latter doesn't actually turn the board in difficult terrain, just makes the units move like they were in terrain. The tremorstaff on the other hand makes the unit hit count as being in difficult terrain, so that may stack.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 11 2011, 08:23

Honestly, if Necrons do become a reasonably sized slice of the metagame then I'm just going to a) be clinically unsurprised and b) use an all reserves army as my standard build.

I'm pretty sure that the combination of terrain abuse and nightfighting/lightning bolts is going to be in the Necron big thing, because its too harsh to too many armies to not be in a power build, but it works a whole lot less when the first turns aren't having any real effect on the outcome of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 11 2011, 08:59

Since the necrons have so many different expensive toys, the power builds will probably include 2 or so of several tricks. So there should be some variety in there armies. Some of the builds will probably have very different play styles and counters. for example a many ghost ark warrior list would be much more resilant but less mobile then a all nightscythe mech list. The nightfight and terrain abuse will probably be popular early since they are fairly easy to spot, but there are some other nasty combos in there that could make competitive lists without them. The cryptec staff weapon str 4 assualt 4 haywire could be spammed to suppress alot of tanks for example(dark eldar reason to attack necrons, my solarite wants one). after the initial burst of the most obvious combo everywhere(probably terrain abuse and nightfight), the other tricks will start being built around. Same with troop choices, it'll probably start with warriors(since people have them, or there the cheapest to buy) in ghost arks(new shiny model and nightscythe won't be released for some time).

If I remember correctly all the dark eldar lists had 3 ravangers with dark lance, then people started discovering the webway list and razorwings, I remember many people saying they were over priced and not useful. Many more raider spam lists before the venom was released also. Necrons will probably go through stages the same way as people spot power combos, and people find counters.

Since there combos involve wargear that has no official model so far, it may be hard to tell what kind of necron list your facing till the first turn, unless you have a copy of there list and know what all the wargear is called.
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 11 2011, 09:39

Tbh I think Necrons will help us more than hurt us. SW and MEQ teams will actually have to change their power lists to handle AV13. We will see less Longfangs and more "quality" shooting now.

Just penetrating on 6 wont cut it.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 11 2011, 15:06

I would like to see (from someone who might have a codex or just knows) to give a little introduction on just the HQ's and perhaps their special rule or trick, special combo or play style. For example, I am seeing this Stormlord guy a lot. I do not know his real name but apparently he is the one that causes nightfight and shoots lightning from his fingers (the Mighty Tym?).

Can anyone showcase them? That would be the first step in educating the DE masses.

P.S. Has anyone seen a list yet with just a regular Lord?

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 11 2011, 15:25

Enh, I'll have a go at it, why not... gimme 20 minutes or so


There we go... and no I haven't seen people usng heir own lords yet, these guys are too good.

Imotek the Stormlord: Casts a pall of darkness that gets harder to kep up as the game continues. while the storm is raging, each enemy unit not in CC has a chance to take d6 S8 AP5 hits. If he kills an enemy IC, he counts extra wounds to combat re. Oh yeah, and he siezes the initiative like vect, but not against orks.

Nifty trick: Cryptek with Chronometron, lets you reroll that pesky storm ending roll.

Illuminator Szeras: Upgrades one unit of Warriors or Immortals a la Fabius Bile

Nifty trick:.... Got me...

Orikan the Diviner: Master seer, Eldar wish they got it this good. Can reroll failed reserves roll for one turn, also, has two stat lines, the uber version activates randomly, then deactivates randomly.

Nifty trick: Uhhh, Deepstrike a lot?

Trazyn the Infinite: Think Agent Smith... If he dies, he takes over the body of another necron. Can capture objectives.... /facepalm

Nifty Trick, keep plenty of Crypteks, lords and Lychguard around for him to reanimate in.

Zandrek and Obyron(I know they're misspelled.): Creed and Kell. Zanny can give and take away special rules like a mother on Halloween, also if your opponent deepstrikes, you can bring in all of your DSing models... IN THEIR TURN! Oby can teleport to his master's side, vanish and re-deepstrike immediately, and gets an extra attack whenever someone misses him.

Nifty trick: That DS happens in the opponent's turn, so packs of flyed ones can pop up and charge right quick.

Anrakyr the Traveller: Takes over the opponent's vehicles, shoots their side with it.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 11 2011, 16:27

I'm not sure if chronometron lets you reroll the Stormlord's night fighting, as the rule states that it aplies to the Cryptek's unit. An IC isn't technically a part of the unit, he just joins it (the Crypteks and Lords aren't ICs, but more like Wolf Guard in that they become a permanent part of the unit you assign them at the start of the game). Anyway, the character's you're likely to run into:

Imhotek the Stormlord, aka. Stormlord: The big name character of the codex, equivalent to Vect or Calagar. Seizes initiative on 4+, exept against Orks. Summons a storm which makes the first turn always count as nigh fighting, and makes the night fighting continue if he rolls higher than the turn number (so 3+ on turn 2, 4+ on turn 3 etc.). When the storm is active, unengaged units take D6 s8 ap5 hits on a roll of 6 at the start of the Necron shooting. Vehicles are hit in the side armour. He's tough with a 2+/3++ save and a psylachtery (gives him D3 wounds instead of 1 for the first WBB test), but for an expensive character he kinda sucks in combat. s5 and reroll to hit and wound is nice, but he has no power weapons, 3 attacks and ws4. He's slightly better at shooting with a heavy flamer equivalent and a one use weapon that does s6 ap1 hits on a 2D6'' line, but still not that impressive.

Thrazyn the Infinite, aka. Trollzyn: Everybody loves his fluff. He's basically a crazy treasure collector who loots everybodys stuff. Counts as a scoring unit and has an ability that lets him go all "assuming direct controll" on a Cryptek/Lord/Lychguard if killed, replacing that model and returning to game with the same amount of wounds the model had. Also has a nasty weapon that if it inflicts a wound, it also wounds every other identical model in combat. However, it's not a power weapon and he also has 3 attacks on ws4.

Nemesor Zahdrek, aka. Captain Crazy, and his buddy Vargard Obyron: These two can be bought separately but are really meant to be used together. The Nemesor is crazy cheap, costing like 5 points more than an Overlord with the same gear (which includes the resurrection orb). He's also cary fluffwise, thinking he's still alive. He's a good enough tactician that the other Necrons tolerate him (plus his buddy Obyron will kill anybody who tries hurting him). He can make any unit in resrves deep strike on the enemy if enemy reserves come in, and can give one friendly unit tank hunters, night vision, counter attack or furious charge, and can change what rule and which unit he grants it to every turn (so he can make Heavy Destroyes count as having s10 guns and make Flayed Ones actually really nasty in combat, among other things). He can also take one of those rules away from an enemy unit in his line of sight for a turn. He's even more rubbish in combat than the previosu guys, but that's why you have Obyron.

Vargard Obyron is the only unit in the entire codex with above-average fighting skills. He has ws6 and carries a warscythe (s7 2D6 penetration power weapon). He also gains extra hits for every missed attack against him in melee. He has an upgraded version of the veil of darkness (allows him and his unit to be takne off the board and immediately deep strike back) that, unlike regular veil, can be used while in melee. If Zahdrek is in close combat, he immediately teleports into the combat to save his ass.

Anrakyr the Traveller, aka. the guy who can hijack your tank: He can hijack a vehicle within 18'' on a roll of 3+, making it fire at friendly units (he can't move or pivot it, so at least if you don't have a turret his targets will be somewhat limited). He also has furious charge and a warscythe (still average ws and low number of attacks). Also gives one unit of immortals some special rules, but really, you take this guy cause he hijacks an enemy tank on 3+.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 11 2011, 17:11

Of course he's part of the unit when he joins it. Otherwise an IC couldn't get in a transport with a unit, because only one unit can get into the transport. Anyone who seriously thinks the Chrono doesn't affect the IC is setting themselves up for andy CHambes's instructions in the 3rd ed Eldar codex (Q: The Wraithlord has two Dreadnought Power Fists, but isn't a dreadnought, does it strike last? A:No. And net time roll up your codex and smack yoour opponent on the head, then tell him not to be so bloody liberal)

Pain tokens affect the unit that has them, does thiss mean the Succubus with the bloodbrides doesn't get to use their pain tokens? After all, she's just along with them, she's not really part of the unit. If you're going to try and one up someone, at least don't make a bloody iditotic mistake in the first sentence.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 12 2011, 08:40

A lot of things are wrong about what people are saying, I hope people have been correcting them but I'll particularly point out this stuff Nomic has posted:

- Zhandrekh - He removes ALL the special rules he can potentially give only 1 of per PLAYER turn. He's a very flexible character and I think the will be taken over Stormlord in the long run

- Because Stormlord needs to first get a 6 and then determine how many shots that unit gets if he's lucky enough to get that 6. BTW Stormlord's Night Fight is also bad for the Necrons in a way because they don't have Night Vision like we do. Still is pain, Night Fight is, but it's less so with Stormlord.

- "He's slightly better at shooting with a heavy flamer equivalent" No, it's a regular Flamer.

- Stormlord can't extend the Storm via Chronometron simply because he doesn't do it. "If you include Stormlord in your army..." begins that whole Storm rule. He can die and you won't stop it from coming if the Necron player is lucky enough, but no re-rolls via Chrono, lol.

- You take Anrakyr for the ability to kill 3 tanks in a turn potentially (Pass over with barge, kill; disembark possess - kill; charge another tank in front of you -kill. Otherwise, Necron stand-alone anti-tank isn't so great and relies on synergy with the rest of the list.

- If you're worried about Doom Scythes they're pretty much our Flyers of drop in, kill a good portion, and die in retaliation.

What Necrons mean for DE looking at them? I don't think of much past just prepare for Night Fight shenanigans. Lances don't care about AV 13; we shouldn't be bunched up that much vs. them in the first place due to us having generally superior range, and our Beast pack can meet the Scarabs head on and maim 'em good. Now other armies? They might hate the AV 13 spam (not realistically, come on Meltas) but I think the most annoying things Necrons can do is spam out that Str 7 and if you're not GK or didn't buy EA as Imperials, you're in for a rough stun-locky good time, lol. I have the Codex if anyone wants clarification for anything. Oh wait...Orikan + Writhing Worldscape might give DE some trouble (Orikan making first turn difficult terrain, Worldscape making all terran dangerous (and 1 or 2 "you die results" for already dangerous terrain) is pretty sick.

Could Reserve vs. that I suppose but that allows the Necrons to easily get in their majority 24" weapon range before you arrive and that's not good.
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 12 2011, 13:57

I hope Chronometron would be FAQed (book is... just awfully written) as well as some other things. Actually I also think he should not get reroll (does IC benefit from Combat Drugs/Grenades from unit? No? PFP states Pain bonuses apply to whole unit AND IC via "sharing the pain" rule).

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 12 2011, 14:47

Ok, another situation, then. Archon joins a squad of Harlies. does the shadowseer protect him? After all, Veil of Tears only affects the unit. Then, when he gets shot at, do all the wounds pile on the IC?

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 12 2011, 15:07

And this (ie IC don't benefit from unit rule unless specified) is correct. I don't have Veil wording but if I remember correctly it is "unit + IC" psychic power.
Or was it in Eldar book?

Anyway Veil (probably) work and Chronometron don't.

You just give wrong examples.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 12 2011, 15:17

"The shadowseer or the unit she is with" I really can't tell if you actually beieve an IC isn't part of the unit they join or if you're trolling me at this point.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 12 2011, 15:19

I have no intention to. Hell, I would LIKE that one to work. PP =/= special rules so Veil apply.

To be honest most tournaments FAQ this type of situation as "yes, it does" so I would check beforehand.

Also about Stormlord ability... Its worder REALLY poorly. I'm not even sure if he is needed for that. Look: he don't need to have be on board to start lightning AND it still apply after You kill him. Not sure if "he" roll this die...

I would wait for FAQ and use "no, it does not" ruling in the meantime to be on safe side.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 12 2011, 18:45

@Local Ork - out of curiosity, could you define unit within the rules? When an IC joins a unit he becomes "part of the unit" so I'm really uncertain where you're trying to go with this bit of semantics. It doesn't appear to hold water to me.

Having seen the Necron codex and the prices, I'm feeling slightly sorry for the bots right at this stage. My prediction is they are little more than a blip on the radar in the grand competitive scheme - I don't see anything there that will really redefine the top lists. I wouldn't mind being wrong, but that's my prediction.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 12 2011, 20:07

@Thor665 wrote:
Having seen the Necron codex and the prices, I'm feeling slightly sorry for the bots right at this stage. My prediction is they are little more than a blip on the radar in the grand competitive scheme - I don't see anything there that will really redefine the top lists. I wouldn't mind being wrong, but that's my prediction.

Good, if they don't cause massive overhaul it means the codex is balanced.


As for the Chronometron/Stormlord thing, I agree that it's pretty clear that it isn't the Stormlord rolling the die, it's just a special ability that taking him in your army lets you roll for.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 12 2011, 21:02

@Anggul wrote:
Good, if they don't cause massive overhaul it means the codex is balanced.
That's a harsh way of looking at it and I think it's totally wrong. Here's an example;

Let's say that the Necron Codex allowed you to field a reasonably competitive foot army of bots (call it DE level competitive - as I think you'll agree we're not imbalanced), that was a big threat to AV 11 spam due to the way they generated glances.

That would drastically change the meta, but would it be overpowered and unfair? I actually think the Necrons have a lot of rules that are poorly balanced and will be obnoxious - but I don't think they're going to be good enough to shake up the top tiers.
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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 12 2011, 21:22

DE haven't drastically changed the meta, because Space Wolves and Imperial Guard are still probably the most powerful armies. People still make sure their armies are capable of fighting them, whereas you don't get everyone thinking: 'But what if I fight Dark Eldar?'

The main thing I think Necrons will change is that there will be more lascannons around rather than missile launchers, which yes will make a difference as that's less points put into other places, but isn't so game-changing as to be annoying, which I see as a good thing.

I wasn't trying to be 'harsh' or negative, in fact I was being positive.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 12 2011, 21:45

I don't even really expect them to change things to that level. They have nothing that will make the top lists blink, and actually bring probably *less* variety to the table then they did before where at least I'd build lists with the question 'what happens if I face Necrons' now I don't have that as a consideration to sweat for either DE or Orks. I'll just do to them basically what I do to the assorted SM armies - except it will be easier.

I don't think that's a good thing. I may not go so far as to say it's a bad thing, but it is a boring thing.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 12 2011, 23:06

Speaking of the Command Barge, what is your intrepetion of the sweeping attack rule? Specifically, the rule states that if the Lord remains embarked, he may do the sweeping attack. I'd be inclined to read it as the Lord not being able to disembark if he uses the ability (since othervise it would probably just read "if the Lord is embarked when the Barge moves over a unit", and it would kind of make sense since the attacks are supposed to be his close combat attacks), but it could probably be intreperted as the Lord merely having to be embarked during the movement, allowing him to disembark at the end of the movement and assault.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 14 2011, 08:00

Here's a niche I found I think it's possible to be a big "pain in the arse" list

HQ: Nemesor Zhandrekh -185 + Vargard Obyron -165

Royal Court:

Cryptek: Eldricht Lance & Solar Pulse -35
Cryptek: Eldricht Lance -35
Cryptek: Abyssal Staff -30

Cryptek: Staff of Light -25
Necron Lord: Warscythe -45
{Obyron}

EL: 5 Deathmarks -95 {Abyssal}
/Night Scythe -100
EL: Triarch Stalker (Heat Ray) -150
EL: Triarch Stalker (Heat Ray) -150

TR: 5 Warriors -65 {Pulse}
/Ghost Ark -115
TR: 5 Warriors -65 {Zhan} {Lance}
/Ghost Ark -115
TR: 5 Immortals: Tesla Carbines -85
/Night Scythe -100

HVY: Annhilation Barge -90
HVY: Doom Scythe -175
HVY: Doom Scythe -175

2000

So you may cry out "WOLF!" on the 5 man units but realistically the one with Zhan is 9 (Wounds) and the Pulse makes another 6 (Woopideefuck?)

Also note out:
Select TROOPS unit visible to potentially to a great portion of the enemy list? (As in didn't hide it well enough or, thinking ahead, what will the enemy want to kill? (Usually Zhan) Give them Stealth, Go to Ground, Keep the Immortals off the table for a possible steal of a third (just need the majority right, we don't want to over exert these rusty bodies, lol). You should be on a Objective (and likely even 2) with Solar Pulse popped first turn and just with how all the standard deployments are giving the enemy real hell trying to shoot down this game set up time.

Meanwhile you have the rest of the army built to kill the enemy, this is probably not an ideal layout, but 5 TL Destructors, 2 2 Shot MMs, 2 Death Rays, a good amount of Flayers and the "most likely FAQ'd out" Abyssal/Deathmark combo to erase a selected unit potentially is all nice.

The 2nd half of the Royal Court threatens with it's 20" threat range aboard a stolen Ark, but really a place for Oby to hide in till he needs to come out, it shouldn't be baited into a offensive use unless your Troops are well safe, but rather as linebackers (It's only 2+Obyron, but 2+ Obyron is pretty much enough with T5 and up to 13 Warscythe attacks from a mere 2 dudes, it's pretty frightening.) defending your psuedo-gun-line

Basically -

Zhan + minimize your troops, be crafty with terrain/cover and concealment use, use your own AV for hiding too, and just make the 5 man sucky Troops pansies with 2+ Cover within the Necron army bunker. Anything that tries to bring the pain on your sucky Troops pays for it in blood.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 14 2011, 16:41

Personally the only thing I see them changing is TL Lasbacks coming back into fashion (atleast BA doesnt have to change with their las/plas backs) AV 13 is going to slow down longfang and autocannon spam like crazy... especially if you spam it w/ min warrior squads. I just thought up a list w/ 9 AV 13 and 1 AV 14 (thats gona be alot mad SM players out there Razz )

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 14 2011, 16:48

Not really, Meltaguns devastate everything with QS (OT) due to +2 to damage rolls.

@Nomic
From what I've read it's made in movement phase and DON'T obligate You to attack same target with shooting/cc. This mean "guy that can highjack tanks" have potential to kill 3 tanks per turn, in each phase.
As added bonus, you don't need to attack "jacked" tank, since his perk isn't shooting attack.
Well, at least until FAQ hit.

And yes, You can (need actually) disembark to do that.

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PostSubject: Re: The Necrontyr Threat   The Necrontyr Threat - Page 8 I_icon_minitime

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