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 Can Soulburst override other restrictions?

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Myrvn
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 09:38

@Count Adhemar wrote:
You only get to charge. Any actual fighting has to wait for the assault phase. They can just have a nice cup of tea whilst they're waiting to kill each other.

Then, if I kill an enemy unit in the assault phase normally and use soulburst to assault another unit (as it is stated that they can perform an action even if they already did so this turn) do I get to resolve this second assault then and there or do I have to wait until next turn's assault phase?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 10:00

You have to wait for next turn's assault phase. Other than keeping a unit locked in combat to prevent it being shot, there's not really that much use to be gained from charging with Soulburst.

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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 10:25

@dumpeal wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
I agree 100% with Kantalla.

@Count Adhemar
I would like to know your opinion on which of these paragraphs from BRB takes precedence.
BRB Locked in Combat wrote:
If a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat. Units that are locked in close combat must fight in the Assault phase. Units are no longer locked in combat if, at end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.
BRB Consolidation wrote:
At the end of a combat, if a unit’s opponents are all either destroyed or Falling Back, or the end of combat Pile In was insufficient so that it is no longer locked in combat, that unit may Consolidate. Consolidating units move up to D6" in any direction as the sudden victory may leave the warriors raring to storm onwards or flat-footed and dumbfounded, according to the vagaries of fate.
The first one says that a unit qualifies for being locked in combat when it has enemy model in B2B. Therefore as soon as this condition is not met, the unit is not locked in combat. And in the next sentence it opposes itself saying that it can actually be locked in combat in certain situations even without enemy model in B2B.

Second one says that an unit that destroys the enemy in B2B is no longer locked in combat at the end of COMBAT. Not the phase.

Three slightly different rules. Which one to choose?

My opinion is that unit ceases to be locked in combat as soon as the unit has noone in B2B after all eligible combat moves like pile-in, because the other parts of the rule specify conditions of losing the "locked" state, but do not say there cannot be any other option to lose it.


The first rule is a general rule saying that at the end of a phase, all unit that aren't in close combat are not locked. It's a battlefield-wide update of their status.

The second one is a specific way to not be locked. They do not contradict themselve.
So you agree as well that unit can become "not-locked" earlier than at the end of assault phase?
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 10:31

@Count Adhemar wrote:
there's not really that much use to be gained from charging with Soulburst.

Getting to assault in the enemy's turn is a big enough advantage for me.

Lets give this one more twist.

Ynnari unit A assaults unit C.
Ynnari unit B assaults unit D.

Ynnari unit A assaults and completely kills unit C, then uses soulburst to assist unit B in its assault to unit D. They could participate in this combat as usual, right?

Ok, ok, one last question, this time regarding shooting.

The rules state that you can perform an action even if that action was already perform this turn, but doesnt specify it working the other way around, so...

If one of my units receive a soulburst action in its pshychic phase and use it to shoot... can it shoot again in the shooting phase? I think using RAW they would not be able to, right?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 11:25

@aurynn wrote:
@Count Adhemar
I would like to know your opinion on which of these paragraphs from BRB takes precedence.

BRB Locked in Combat wrote:
If a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat. Units that are locked in close combat must fight in the Assault phase. Units are no longer locked in combat if, at end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.

BRB Consolidation wrote:
At the end of a combat, if a unit’s opponents are all either destroyed or Falling Back, or the end of combat Pile In was insufficient so that it is no longer locked in combat, that unit may Consolidate. Consolidating units move up to D6" in any direction as the sudden victory may leave the warriors raring to storm onwards or flat-footed and dumbfounded, according to the vagaries of fate

The first one says that a unit qualifies for being locked in combat when it has enemy model in B2B. Therefore as soon as this condition is not met, the unit is not locked in combat.

That’s not what it says. It’s right there in the quote – “Units are no longer locked in combat if, at end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model...”. Not as soon as there are no models in base contact.

@aurynn wrote:
And in the next sentence it opposes itself saying that it can actually be locked in combat in certain situations even without enemy model in B2B.

No, the first sentence says what condition needs to be met for you to be locked in combat and the last sentence says when you stop being locked in combat when that condition is no longer met, ie it doesn’t happen immediately (which it would need to in order for Soulburst to work).

@aurynn wrote:
Second one says that an unit that destroys the enemy in B2B is no longer locked in combat at the end of COMBAT. Not the phase.

The end of the combat occurs after all applicable initiative steps have been completed (which is the point that Soulburst would need to trigger if you’ve wiped out the enemy unit), assault results have been calculated, morale has been checked, sweeping advances made and the end of combat pile in has been done. At that stage you get to consolidate if you are no longer locked in combat but you have lost the opportunity to take a Soulburst action.

@aurynn wrote:
My opinion is that unit ceases to be locked in combat as soon as the unit has noone in B2B after all eligible combat moves like pile-in, because the other parts of the rule specify conditions of losing the "locked" state, but do not say there cannot be any other option to lose it.

That may well be your opinion but what the rules say is that you are no longer locked in combat at the end of the phase if you have no models in base to base contact. It really is right there in black and white

Quote :
Units are no longer locked in combat if, at [the] end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model

Until they are no longer locked in combat, they are erm...locked in combat!

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
If one of my units receive a soulburst action in its pshychic phase and use it to shoot... can it shoot again in the shooting phase? I think using RAW they would not be able to, right?

Why?

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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 13:10

@Count Adhemar wrote:
You have to wait for next turn's assault phase. Other than keeping a unit locked in combat to prevent it being shot, there's not really that much use to be gained from charging with Soulburst.

I get what you are saying but the soulburst rule gives you permission (and takes it away). I have no idea why you are so certain you are correct. Sides will be drawn and swords rattled but until GW lets us know we have no idea how it will shake out. I think it's more than reasonable that GW meant you could charge something and kill it and then charge something else. Quite honestly if that's not the case it's a pretty useless ability as shooty units don't want to get that close to combat to trigger it. A scatbkike unit parked 7/14 inches from anything is a kill point waiting to happen.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 13:15

@mattblowers wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
You have to wait for next turn's assault phase. Other than keeping a unit locked in combat to prevent it being shot, there's not really that much use to be gained from charging with Soulburst.

I get what you are saying but the soulburst rule gives you permission (and takes it away). I have no idea why you are so certain you are correct.

Because I've read the rule? If you think differently then by all means explain where in the Soulburst rules you are given permission to fight the combat? That happens in the fight sub-phase and the Soulburst rule very specifically grants you the ability to charge as it if were the charge sub-phase. The only time you have permission to fight is if you use the Soulburst in the Fight sub-phase.

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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 13:27

Is it not that once you've charged using soulburst that particular combat is tacked on at the end of the fight sub-phase as you've now got another unit in combat to be resolved?

You basically revert back to the charge sub-phase, then resume your fight sub-phase with the extra combat to resolve.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 13:47

@Ynneadwraith wrote:
Is it not that once you've charged using soulburst that particular combat is tacked on at the end of the fight sub-phase as you've now got another unit in combat to be resolved?

You basically revert back to the charge sub-phase, then resume your fight sub-phase with the extra combat to resolve.

The second part of the rule is very poorly written as it doesn't seem to understand that a) you can't charge if you're already in a combat so there's no such thing as "the end of the current initiative step" and b) each combat is resolved separately so, even if there was, it would apply to the combat that the unit was in previously, not the combat that they've just joined.

My best guess on what they meant is that a) they assumed you could charge as soon as you wipe out your existing opponent and that b) if you do so, you do it at the end of the initiative step in that combat. Models in the charging unit then get to act from the next initiative step in the combat that they join.

For example, a unit of Reavers charges a unit of Marines who are not in cover and wipes them out on Initiative step 10 with HoW. At the end of 10 they charge another unit using a Soulburst action. When resolving that combat, the Reavers only get to act from I9 downwards and therefore miss out on another round of HoW attacks but can still use their normal attacks when they reach their initiative step.

That's how I think it's supposed to work. It's absolutely not how they wrote it!

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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 13:55

Yeah that was my understanding of how it would pan out too, regardless of what they wrote Wink

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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 16:00

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@mattblowers wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
You have to wait for next turn's assault phase. Other than keeping a unit locked in combat to prevent it being shot, there's not really that much use to be gained from charging with Soulburst.

I get what you are saying but the soulburst rule gives you permission (and takes it away). I have no idea why you are so certain you are correct.

Because I've read the rule? If you think differently then by all means explain where in the Soulburst rules you are given permission to fight the combat? That happens in the fight sub-phase and the Soulburst rule very specifically grants you the ability to charge as it if were the charge sub-phase. The only time you have permission to fight is if you use the Soulburst in the Fight sub-phase.

By that same logic you can't shoot either on your turn from soulburst unless it's your first time shooting. Shooting sequence rules from BRB "1. Choose one of your units that that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this TURN."

It makes soulburst nearly useless unless it triggers on your opponents turn. I don't think that's how it's supposed to work. I could be wrong, but I doubt that's how they meant it to work.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 16:06

Yeah it would mean that you can't soulburst shoot in the psychic phase and then shoot again in your shooting phase normally, but you can shoot, kill, soulburst, shoot again as the SfD rule permits you to do those actions "even if it has already been done that turn"
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 16:11

It says the same thing for assaulting but the Counts asserting that rules as written you cannot because you are locked in combat and it can't trigger the unit. NM, now that I read it I realize it's a different argument. The one is an argument about the trigger portion of the rule.
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 16:29

This might be the most poorly written rule in Warhammer 40k history. Jesus, every time I look at it I have more game changing questions with no clear answer.

I think they should FAQ it asap rewriting it in its entirety.

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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 16:33

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
This might be the most poorly written rule in Warhammer 40k history. Jesus, every time I look at it I have more game changing questions with no clear answer.

I think they should FAQ it asap rewriting it in its entirety.

I couldn't agree more. Every time I look at it I get more confused. Not a single person here has read all the interactions the same way, it's even worse the GSC rules were.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 16:54

I am with Count Adhemar,
All soulburst does is allow you an out of turn free action. This out of turn free action (move, Shoot, Charge) must still follow all the Rules that are currently out there. So if you are locked in combat till the end of the assault phase, then you cant perform the assault.

The same thing for Deep Strikers and Turbo Boosters. You cant charge after performing those actions.

Just because you get a free action doesn't mean you get to ignore the rest of the rules of combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 16:55

Crosses fingers for FAQ soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 17:28

@mattblowers wrote:

By that same logic you can't shoot either on your turn from soulburst unless it's your first time shooting. Shooting sequence rules from BRB "1. Choose one of your units that that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this TURN."

The strength from death rule specifically allows you to perform one of those actions, "even if you've already done so this turn".

So, that is the one restriction that they directly spelled out that soulburst overrides.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 19:54

@aurynn wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
I agree 100% with Kantalla.

@Count Adhemar
I would like to know your opinion on which of these paragraphs from BRB takes precedence.
BRB Locked in Combat wrote:
If a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat. Units that are locked in close combat must fight in the Assault phase. Units are no longer locked in combat if, at end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.
BRB Consolidation wrote:
At the end of a combat, if a unit’s opponents are all either destroyed or Falling Back, or the end of combat Pile In was insufficient so that it is no longer locked in combat, that unit may Consolidate. Consolidating units move up to D6" in any direction as the sudden victory may leave the warriors raring to storm onwards or flat-footed and dumbfounded, according to the vagaries of fate.
The first one says that a unit qualifies for being locked in combat when it has enemy model in B2B. Therefore as soon as this condition is not met, the unit is not locked in combat. And in the next sentence it opposes itself saying that it can actually be locked in combat in certain situations even without enemy model in B2B.

Second one says that an unit that destroys the enemy in B2B is no longer locked in combat at the end of COMBAT. Not the phase.

Three slightly different rules. Which one to choose?

My opinion is that unit ceases to be locked in combat as soon as the unit has noone in B2B after all eligible combat moves like pile-in, because the other parts of the rule specify conditions of losing the "locked" state, but do not say there cannot be any other option to lose it.


The first rule is a general rule saying that at the end of a phase, all unit that aren't in close combat are not locked. It's a battlefield-wide update of their status.

The second one is a specific way to not be locked. They do not contradict themselve.
So you agree as well that unit can become "not-locked" earlier than at the end of assault phase?

Yes, that's what I think. The consolitation rule explicitly state that you unlock, when you consolidate. Does the soulburst happens right when the unit is destroyed, or after the consolidation is another story.
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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 20:41

@dumpeal wrote:


Yes, that's what I think. The consolitation rule explicitly state that you unlock, when you consolidate. Does the soulburst happens right when the unit is destroyed, or after the consolidation is another story.
Ooh, that's good. Consolidate specifically states that "at the end of combat, if a unit's opponents area all either destroyed or falling back, or the of combat Pile In was insufficient so that it is NO LONGER LOCKED IN COMBAT, that unit may Consolidate."

I think they happen simultaneously (need to reread Soulburst) which would allow the player whose action it is to decide the order of operations. I think you helped clear that up.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 22:28

@mattblowers wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:


Yes, that's what I think. The consolitation rule explicitly state that you unlock, when you consolidate. Does the soulburst happens right when the unit is destroyed, or after the consolidation is another story.
Ooh, that's good. Consolidate specifically states that "at the end of combat, if a unit's opponents area all either destroyed or falling back, or the of combat Pile In was insufficient so that it is NO LONGER LOCKED IN COMBAT, that unit may Consolidate."

I think they happen simultaneously (need to reread Soulburst) which would allow the player whose action it is to decide the order of operations. I think you helped clear that up.

At the risk of repeating myself

@Count Adhemar wrote:
The end of the combat occurs after all applicable initiative steps have been completed (which is the point that Soulburst would need to trigger if you’ve wiped out the enemy unit), assault results have been calculated, morale has been checked, sweeping advances made and the end of combat pile in has been done. At that stage you get to consolidate if you are no longer locked in combat but you have lost the opportunity to take a Soulburst action.

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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 16 2017, 00:56

When does a restriction reset? If you turbo boost on your turn, you can't assault in your next assault phase. Can you assault in your opponent's shooting phase? Beginning of your next turn?
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 16 2017, 01:14

In your opponent's next movement phase, theoretically. That's the first phase following your next assault phase.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 16 2017, 01:47

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@mattblowers wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:


Yes, that's what I think. The consolitation rule explicitly state that you unlock, when you consolidate. Does the soulburst happens right when the unit is destroyed, or after the consolidation is another story.
Ooh, that's good. Consolidate specifically states that "at the end of combat, if a unit's opponents area all either destroyed or falling back, or the of combat Pile In was insufficient so that it is NO LONGER LOCKED IN COMBAT, that unit may Consolidate."

I think they happen simultaneously (need to reread Soulburst) which would allow the player whose action it is to decide the order of operations. I think you helped clear that up.

At the risk of repeating myself

@Count Adhemar wrote:
The end of the combat occurs after all applicable initiative steps have been completed (which is the point that Soulburst would need to trigger if you’ve wiped out the enemy unit), assault results have been calculated, morale has been checked, sweeping advances made and the end of combat pile in has been done. At that stage you get to consolidate if you are no longer locked in combat but you have lost the opportunity to take a Soulburst action.

Saying the same thing 2x doesn't make the argument twice as strong. Since the rule even talks about how to resolve it if it triggers during combat in between initiative steps I think a reasonable person can make the case that it's within the rules to do it.

Let's step through it:

1. "a unit making a soulburst action do one of the following, even if it has already done so in this turn:"

2. you can A- move, B- shoot, C- charge

3. "a unit can only make one soulburst action per turn"

Why not say that you can only A- move, B- shoot, or C- charge if you have not charged already this turn? Since you can't soulburst more than once you would never charge on your opponents turn twice. The only way you can charge 2x is if it's on your turn and you already charged. Since it wouldn't apply in any other scenario, why bother writing it? I'm not saying your wrong, but there's plenty of evidence for either argument.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 16 2017, 02:13

I think Count is right. The language in the rule seems to be completing the current action, not a new charge. IE: Unit A kills Unit B at I6, Unit C is within 7" and charges a new unit. I don't think it is intended for Unit A to be able to charge again.
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