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 Can Soulburst override other restrictions?

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Vlad
Kabalite Warrior
Vlad

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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 16:16

That is interesting and in theory will work!
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 16:19

@|Meavar wrote:
You have unit A and B .
A charges and kills something. Soulbyrst B to shoot. This also kills something. A charges as a soulburst action.

A still couldn't charge as it's all taking place in the assault phase and A is still locked in combat until the end of the phase.

The only way I can see at the moment for 2 charges in a single turn is to use a soulburst to charge after killing something in the movement, psychic or shooting phase, wipe your target out and then use your actual assault phase to carry out another charge but my understanding is that if you use soulburst to make a charge move you only get the charge sub-phase and still have to wait for the assault phase to get the fight sub-phase where you actually kill stuff. So even that doesn't work!

I'm starting to agree that it needs a FAQ, not because it's unclear but because it doesn't bloody work!

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Last edited by Count Adhemar on Tue Feb 14 2017, 16:22; edited 1 time in total
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 16:21

The bonus charge wouldn't give you an extra round of fighting, though. It would just get you into b2b, and you'd wait until the assault phase to actually fight.
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 16:24

@Jimsolo wrote:
The bonus charge wouldn't give you an extra round of fighting, though. It would just get you into b2b, and you'd wait until the assault phase to actually fight.

Yep, already cottoned onto that and was editing whilst you were typing Smile

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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 16:39

Nevermind already answered. Couldn't delete the post.
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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 17:17

@Vlad wrote:


1.Can a unit mounted in a Vehicle benefit from SoulBurst? I would say yes, they can providing they meet the other parameters required.



So this one brings up another question. So if a unit mounted in a Vehicle can perform a soulburst can they use that to Disembark?

For Example. Venom full of Incubi moves 12 inches forward. They get soulbursted for whatever reason. They use this to move out of the vehicle. meaning they can assault when the assault turn comes around.
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Vlad
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 17:27

@mrmagoo I would say that would be acceptable yes!
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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 17:28

Ok Thanks.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 19:17

My best guesses:
Quote :
1. Can a unit mounted in a Vehicle benefit from SoulBurst?
No - unit is not on the table when mounted in a vehicle as per recent FAQ, so unless Soulburst specifically says otherwise, you wouldn't be within X" of the destroyed unit

Quote :
2. Can a unit that has just had to disembark due to its transport being destroyed take a soulburst action from its own transport having been destroyed?
No - same reasoning as above, the unit is not on the table when the transport is destroyed, so is not within range.

Quote :
3. Can a unit that Turbo Boosted/Running, charge using Soulburst?
No - Rule exempts you from the limit of charging once, but doesn't provide exemption from other restrictions like Turbo-Boosting, Running or arriving from reserve.

Quote :
4. Can a unit that deepstruck, Charge Using soulburst?
No - same reasoning as above, no specific exemption for Deep Strike.

Quote :
5. If you kill a Indepedent Character from a unit do you get soulburst.
Yes - an Independent Character is a unit.

Quote :
6. Can a unit that wipes a unit in combat charge another unit.
Yes - on wiping out the unit, you would no longer be locked in combat.

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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 20:04

So nobody has any real idea and everyone is just touting their opinion? The whole initiative thing is really weird. It says to interrupt the initiative and carry on, but that makes no sense. Every combat starts over at initiative 10, so that's a problem. Real issue is GW can't write rules and this one is a real mess.
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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 20:04

I tend to disagree on 1 and 2. If they aren't on the board then how do they shoot, cast witchfire powers. I would say they can shoot.
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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 20:05

@mattblowers wrote:
So nobody has any real idea and everyone is just touting their opinion? The whole initiative thing is really weird. It says to interrupt the initiative and carry on, but that makes no sense. Every combat starts over at initiative 10, so that's a problem. Real issue is GW can't write rules and this one is a real mess.

Yep
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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 20:07

Come on GW, pay attention just a little. If you are going to give a new mechanic, at least play test it a little to see where it breaks. It's like releasing software in alpha phase.
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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 20:10

@Jimsolo wrote:
The bonus charge wouldn't give you an extra round of fighting, though. It would just get you into b2b, and you'd wait until the assault phase to actually fight.

This is gonna cause the neckbeards to rage at tournaments! I can't even imagine how long the game will be paused while the TO tries to sort it out. So I can charge or I can't charge? Or I can charge but I can't fight? Or I can't charge even thought the rules state I can charge even if I already charged? It's breaking rules any way you slice it, so it just depends on the TO to decide which way it will swing. I probably will wait until it gets clarified before playing this army. Time at tournaments is short enough, I don't need this headache. If we can't even agree here on this site it's gonna get squirrely at an event.
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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 20:21

@Vlad wrote:
@mrmagoo I would answer your questions as follows:

1.Can a unit mounted in a Vehicle benefit from SoulBurst? I would say yes, they can providing they meet the other parameters required.

2. Can a unit that has just had to disembark due to its transport being destroyed take a soulburst action from its own transport having been destroyed? This is a bit of a grey area, it depends on whether you interpret the unit as being placed BEFORE or AFTER the vehcle is removed. I would argue before as you place the unit within 3" of the vehicle and therefore the vehicle will still be on the table at the time so my answer to this would be YES you can.

3. Can a unit that Turbo Boosted/Running, charge using Soulburst? Again, an interesting one. I would argue that the rues for the Soulburst action do not allow you to override exsting rules. Ie. A unit that arrives via DeepStrike may never charge that turn. And the soulburst rules specify that you can shoot or charge or move even if you have already done so that turn, as if it was that phase, so I would say all the normal rules apply, bar you can do these things twice etc..

4. Can a unit that deepstruck, Charge Using soulburst? No, see above point 3.

5. If you kill a Indepedent Character from a unit do you get soulburst. YES. An independant character counts as a unit in his own right for all sorts of other rules (first blood etc..), so for now yes although I imagine this may be ruled NO in an FAQ at some point

6. Can a unit that wipes a unit in combat charge another unit. Yes provided that it hasn't already completed a soulburst action that turn. Also, the fight would continue at initiative step, so if you charge in with a troupe of harlies, kill everything with I10 hammer of wrath and then use soulburst to charge another unit, you won't get Hammer of Wrath again as the I10 step is complete. However you would then proceed with I9 attacks and onwards...

I hope this helps and I haven't made any glaring errors of judgement in this Very Happy

I agree %100 Mattblowers, but till I get a confirmation from GW/ITC/Nova Open or someone comes out with credible FAQ, this is probably how I am going to play it.

I know ITC and Nova Open is not GW and not a definitive source but this would at least put everyone on the same page.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 20:22

They probably wrote the rules based on play testing in 8th... Anyone remember the questions about Skilled Rider on Reavers when the 5th codex came out?

Le sigh - I'm thankful I don't play in very many tournaments. I'll go with what seems fair for both parties and hope to resolve any issues with my opponent.
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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 20:24

@Myrvn wrote:
They probably wrote the rules based on play testing in 8th... Anyone remember the questions about Skilled Rider on Reavers when the 5th codex came out?

Le sigh - I'm thankful I don't play in very many tournaments. I'll go with what seems fair for both parties and hope to resolve any issues with my opponent.

Problem with that is when is 8th? That could be a year as far as we truly know. Yes I know the rumors say sooner, but how much do you trust rumors.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 20:26

True. But I'd like to give the new GW the benefit of the doubt. Writing games is a pain. Writing games in British English that is translated to several different languages, but not East Coast American English or West Coast American English and being held accountable to the infallible internet must cause a lot of heartburn.
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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 20:29

Sure it's a pain, that's why they hire professionals to do it. If infinity can do it from Spanish I don't want to hear about the difficulties between UK and US English.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 20:31

Did you play first edition Infinity :-) and they have a much smaller following.

And truly not trying to argue, but I'm hopeful the 2017 GW has a better idea of what's going on then the 2014 variety. The rules are confusing and need a bit of clarification.
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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 20:47

No doubt. I'm not trying to argue either. Just pointing out that if a small company based out of a garage originally can do a decent job, certainly the biggest miniature company in the world can do a wee bit better.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 20:57

I agree 100% with Kantalla.

@Count Adhemar
I would like to know your opinion on which of these paragraphs from BRB takes precedence.
BRB Locked in Combat wrote:
If a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat. Units that are locked in close combat must fight in the Assault phase. Units are no longer locked in combat if, at end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.
BRB Consolidation wrote:
At the end of a combat, if a unit’s opponents are all either destroyed or Falling Back, or the end of combat Pile In was insufficient so that it is no longer locked in combat, that unit may Consolidate. Consolidating units move up to D6" in any direction as the sudden victory may leave the warriors raring to storm onwards or flat-footed and dumbfounded, according to the vagaries of fate.
The first one says that a unit qualifies for being locked in combat when it has enemy model in B2B. Therefore as soon as this condition is not met, the unit is not locked in combat. And in the next sentence it opposes itself saying that it can actually be locked in combat in certain situations even without enemy model in B2B.

Second one says that an unit that destroys the enemy in B2B is no longer locked in combat at the end of COMBAT. Not the phase.

Three slightly different rules. Which one to choose?

My opinion is that unit ceases to be locked in combat as soon as the unit has noone in B2B after all eligible combat moves like pile-in, because the other parts of the rule specify conditions of losing the "locked" state, but do not say there cannot be any other option to lose it.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 21:06

@aurynn wrote:
I agree 100% with Kantalla.

@Count Adhemar
I would like to know your opinion on which of these paragraphs from BRB takes precedence.
BRB Locked in Combat wrote:
If a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat. Units that are locked in close combat must fight in the Assault phase. Units are no longer locked in combat if, at end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.
BRB Consolidation wrote:
At the end of a combat, if a unit’s opponents are all either destroyed or Falling Back, or the end of combat Pile In was insufficient so that it is no longer locked in combat, that unit may Consolidate. Consolidating units move up to D6" in any direction as the sudden victory may leave the warriors raring to storm onwards or flat-footed and dumbfounded, according to the vagaries of fate.
The first one says that a unit qualifies for being locked in combat when it has enemy model in B2B. Therefore as soon as this condition is not met, the unit is not locked in combat. And in the next sentence it opposes itself saying that it can actually be locked in combat in certain situations even without enemy model in B2B.

Second one says that an unit that destroys the enemy in B2B is no longer locked in combat at the end of COMBAT. Not the phase.

Three slightly different rules. Which one to choose?

My opinion is that unit ceases to be locked in combat as soon as the unit has noone in B2B after all eligible combat moves like pile-in, because the other parts of the rule specify conditions of losing the "locked" state, but do not say there cannot be any other option to lose it.


The first rule is a general rule saying that at the end of a phase, all unit that aren't in close combat are not locked. It's a battlefield-wide update of their status.

The second one is a specific way to not be locked. They do not contradict themselve.
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 07:56

Ok, I have a couple questions that are tormenting me.

If I use a soulburst (say, in the psychic phase) to charge an enemy unit, do I fight then and there, or do I have to wait to resolve it until the fight subphase of that turn? The rule only says that you can charge charge like it is your charge subphase, nothing else...

I almost feel bad about playing Ynnari right now becouse of all the glaring issues and unresolved questions of this rule. I feel like Im cheating.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 15 2017, 08:50

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
If I use a soulburst (say, in the psychic phase) to charge an enemy unit, do I fight then and there, or do I have to wait to resolve it until the fight subphase of that turn? The rule only says that you can charge charge like it is your charge subphase, nothing else...

You only get to charge. Any actual fighting has to wait for the assault phase. They can just have a nice cup of tea whilst they're waiting to kill each other.

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