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 Can Soulburst override other restrictions?

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Squidmaster
Klaivex
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PostSubject: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 13 2017, 12:01

I'm wondering how others are reading the STRENGTH FROM DEATH special rule in the new Ynnari Faction.
It limits who can take Soulburst actions, but doesn't say if any other limits apply.
So for example, could a unit which came on from Reserves this turn use a Soulburst action to charge?
Can a unit that used Turbo-Boost, or Deep Strike also charge?

Your thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 13 2017, 12:17

Anything that says you may not charge in the same turn would still be in effect. Thinks like reserves prohibiting charge the turn you come on would still be in effect in my mind.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 13 2017, 12:24

I'm conflicted on this one. On the one hand we have a fairly clear case of Codex>Rulebook. I have a codex rule that allows me to do something. Due to the lazy GW rules writing, that trumps a brb rule that says I can't.

On the other hand though, the SfD rule specifically says "as if it were your movement/shooting/charge (sub-) phase" which implies that restrictions that would normally apply during those phases would still apply here.

Yet again, due to poor or non-existent external playtesting we need a FAQ on day one!

EDIT: Another point to note about Soulburst actions is that you can't make them if you're locked in combat, which means that even if you wipe out an enemy at a high Initiative step you cannot charge another target as you remain locked in combat until the end of the phase.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 13 2017, 22:58

Now that we have access to the full book, it specifically states that you may take this action even if you already shot, moved, or assaulted in that turn. So it specifies that it overrides the limitation of only being able to move, shoot, or assault once a turn but doesn't say anything about overriding other restrictions. Because of that, I'd say it's pretty clear that it does not.

What isn't crystal clear is whether or not taking a soulburst action would prevent you from taking a normal such action later in the same turn. For instance, if you kill someone in your psychic phase and soulburst to shoot, are you then allowed to shoot again in your normal shooting phase?

If not, that means that the Ynnari rules favor lists built around utilizing later phases, so Psykers<Shooters<Melee Duders.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 13 2017, 23:39

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Now that we have access to the full book, it specifically states that you may take this action even if you already shot, moved, or assaulted in that turn. So it specifies that it overrides the limitation of only being able to move, shoot, or assault once a turn but doesn't say anything about overriding other restrictions. Because of that, I'd say it's pretty clear that it does not.

I disagree. The Soulburst action gives a general permission to do something that you would not otherwise be able to do. If that permission is limited in some way it would need to say so, otherwise the conversation inevitably goes:

"The rulebook says you can't do that"
"My codex says I can, so I can"

Quote :
What isn't crystal clear is whether or not taking a soulburst action would prevent you from taking a normal such action later in the same turn. For instance, if you kill someone in your psychic phase and soulburst to shoot, are you then allowed to shoot again in your normal shooting phase?

I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to do so though. There's no rule that says you can't have a shooting phase if you've already shot that turn, probably because this sort of out of sequence action didn't exist when the rules were written. The SfD rule would need to specify that this is the case if that's the intent.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 00:07

@Count Adhemar wrote:

I disagree. The Soulburst action gives a general permission to do something that you would not otherwise be able to do. If that permission is limited in some way it would need to say so

That's the thing, though. If the permission just outright gave you permission to do those things, I'd agree. But it doesn't. It gives you permission to do X, Y, and Z actions, even if you've already performed one of those actions earlier in the turn.

By adding the qualifier at the end of that statement, they have shown that they were willing to go the extra mile to say what things, in particular, that permission overrides. Since they didn't mention the restrictions for coming in from reserves, turbo-boosting or other things that stop you from shooting/charging that turn, I'd say it could be argued that the rule doesn't override those restrictions, particularly because it also says "As if it were your shooting phase", which means that if you couldn't shoot in your shooting phase, you wouldn't be able to shoot during said extra action.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 00:50

I'd hesitantly agree with that.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 02:38

@Jimsolo wrote:
I'd hesitantly agree with that.

Just out of curiousity, what makes you hesitant? The idea or the source? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 02:51

Not being sure the furthest extremes to which the reasoning could be applied. Usually there are corner cases where the logic becomes tricky. I haven't come up with any here, so I'm less definite in my reasoning.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 05:56

I sort of agree. But once you get to the opponents turn things get different. Here every thing would be allowed since it is a new turn so you can charge since you arrived by deep strike last turn?
Now I am not in favor of the following but as a non English speakers I do not know what is wrong with the following argument even though it is wrong. It counts as your blabla phase, if you already had one people could even argue that it thus must be a phase out of turn, thus all the reasoning of you cannot do things this turn would not apply anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 14:19

I have found soulburst to be a very confusing setup.   It is poorly written and raises more questions then it answers.  

1. Can a unit mounted in a Vehicle benefit from SoulBurst?

2. Can a unit that has just had to disembark due to its transport being destroyed take a soulburst action from its own transport having been destroyed?

3. Can a unit that Turbo Boosted/Running, charge using Soulburst?

4. Can a unit that deepstruck, Charge Using soulburst?

5. If you kill a Indepedent Character from a unit do you get soulburst.

6. Can a unit that wipes a unit in combat charge another unit.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 14:47

Most of those questions certainly need answering, but I think #6 is a no as, even if you wipe out your opponents, you remain locked in combat until the end of the assault phase and you cannot use a soulburst action if you're locked in combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 14:53

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Most of those questions certainly need answering, but I think #6 is a no as, even if you wipe out your opponents, you remain locked in combat until the end of the assault phase and you cannot use a soulburst action if you're locked in combat.

But I disagree, It specifically says that it happens at the Initiative step. Meaning it can happen at any point in combat.

As we all know Codex overrides Big Rule Book.

My Opinion is

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. No

4. No

5. Yes

6. Yes

But those are strictly my opinion. I have no basis of fact. Matter of fact on some of them there are rules to the contrary. Like yours.
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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 14:55

Oh Add this one.

Do Ynarri perils on any doubles if taking Sanctic?

I know RAW yes, but I think adding Sanctic as part of their profile should override that.
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Vlad
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 14:57

@mrmagoo I would answer your questions as follows:

1.Can a unit mounted in a Vehicle benefit from SoulBurst? I would say yes, they can providing they meet the other parameters required.

2. Can a unit that has just had to disembark due to its transport being destroyed take a soulburst action from its own transport having been destroyed? This is a bit of a grey area, it depends on whether you interpret the unit as being placed BEFORE or AFTER the vehcle is removed. I would argue before as you place the unit within 3" of the vehicle and therefore the vehicle will still be on the table at the time so my answer to this would be YES you can.

3. Can a unit that Turbo Boosted/Running, charge using Soulburst? Again, an interesting one. I would argue that the rues for the Soulburst action do not allow you to override exsting rules. Ie. A unit that arrives via DeepStrike may never charge that turn. And the soulburst rules specify that you can shoot or charge or move even if you have already done so that turn, as if it was that phase, so I would say all the normal rules apply, bar you can do these things twice etc..

4. Can a unit that deepstruck, Charge Using soulburst? No, see above point 3.

5. If you kill a Indepedent Character from a unit do you get soulburst. YES. An independant character counts as a unit in his own right for all sorts of other rules (first blood etc..), so for now yes although I imagine this may be ruled NO in an FAQ at some point

6. Can a unit that wipes a unit in combat charge another unit. Yes provided that it hasn't already completed a soulburst action that turn. Also, the fight would continue at initiative step, so if you charge in with a troupe of harlies, kill everything with I10 hammer of wrath and then use soulburst to charge another unit, you won't get Hammer of Wrath again as the I10 step is complete. However you would then proceed with I9 attacks and onwards...

I hope this helps and I haven't made any glaring errors of judgement in this Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 15:04

Vlad, Thank you.

I agree with all of those EXCEPT #5, I am sorry but I don't have the rule book in front of me but there is a specific point in the big book that says when a character joins the unit it becomes 1 unit.



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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 15:21

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Most of those questions certainly need answering, but I think #6 is a no as, even if you wipe out your opponents, you remain locked in combat until the end of the assault phase and you cannot use a soulburst action if you're locked in combat.

Hmmm, I think you might be right. Does the BRB state that you are locked in combat until the end of the combat phase? If so, then the Soulburst would occur while you're still locked in combat, and it states that you can charge as if it was your phase, so seeing as you're still locked in combat and can't charge regardless I'd say you can't charge.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 15:21

@mrmagoo wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Most of those questions certainly need answering, but I think #6 is a no as, even if you wipe out your opponents, you remain locked in combat until the end of the assault phase and you cannot use a soulburst action if you're locked in combat.

But I disagree,  It specifically says that it happens at the Initiative step.  Meaning it can happen at any point in combat.  

It also specifically says "you cannot pick a unit that is locked in combat". You're still locked in combat on the initiative step that you wipe out the unit. You could pick a different unit in range and they could make a soulburst action but you cannot use the unit that just wiped out the opponent.

@Ynneadwraith - Units are no longer locked in combat if, at end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.

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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 15:25

I agree,  But the rule specifically states that you do it at the Initiative step.  Which would override the book?

Its a contradiction unto itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 15:26

It does say they can charge "even if they have already done so that turn" which would suggest they can?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 15:29

@mrmagoo wrote:
I agree,  But the rule specifically states that you do it at the Initiative step.  Which would override the book?

Step 1 - wipe out a unit
Step 2 - pick a non-vehicle unit with the SfD rule within 7" to immediately take a soulburst action. That unit cannot be locked in combat, falling back or have gone to ground
Step 3- carry out the soulburst action (at end of current initiative step if in the fight sub-phase)

You fail at step 2 so you don't get to step 3

@Vlad wrote:
It does say they can charge "even if they have already done so that turn" which would suggest they can?

I guess they don't know their own rules then. They may have intended it to work like that but it's pretty clear that it doesn't.

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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 15:37

Count Adhemar, I agree with you.  If they could that would really be overpowered.  But I have to argue the other side as I can see the other side.  This is one that is most assuredly NOT clear.  Yes you are right it does say that but the rules itself contradicts it.  

I think the INTENT(yes I used the dreaded word)  Was that if a unit was locked in close combat with more then 1 unit it would allow a unit NOT in close combat to join the fight.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 16:00

In a normal fight, if 2 units are in close combat and you lose your unit, if you charge with another unit, you will be overwatched. Because it is not locked anymore. So, if you wipe a unit, THIS action MAY NOT trigger a soulburst for unit "A". But if unit "B" give a soulburst to unit "A" after, unit "A" is no longer locked in close combat and will be able to charge again, at the initiative "B" was. I think?
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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 16:07

@dumpeal wrote:
In a normal fight, if 2 units are in close combat and you lose your unit, if you charge with another unit, you will be overwatched. Because it is not locked anymore.

You shouldn't be overwatched because the unit remains locked in combat until the end of the phase and units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch.

Quote :
So, if you wipe a unit, THIS action MAY NOT trigger a soulburst for unit "A". But if unit "B" give a soulburst to unit "A" after, unit "A" is no longer locked in close combat and will be able to charge again, at the initiative "B" was. I think?

Not quite sure what you're saying. Could you give an example?

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PostSubject: Re: Can Soulburst override other restrictions?   Can Soulburst override other restrictions? I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 14 2017, 16:10

You have unit A and B .
A charges and kills something. Soulbyrst B to shoot. This also kills something. A charges as a soulburst action.
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