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 Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?

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Todo13
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PostSubject: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeWed May 25 2011, 01:14

The forum description includes this so I just had to post it.

What do you guys think is he?

I think he is because it would just be so awesome to have a corrupted phoenix lord on our side Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeWed May 25 2011, 02:26

I would say yes, in the same sense that Karandras or Fuegan or any of the other Phoenix Lords don't inhabit their original bodies, yet exist as their original forms.

When an Eldar Phoenix Lord "dies" in battle, a follower of their aspect (usually an exarch) dons the Phoenix Lord's armor, and mentally becomes said Phoenix Lord.
Spoiler:
 

I assume this same principle applies to Arhra, with Drazhar being the name that belonged to the original exarch (in this case, Klaivex) that now wears Arhra's armor.
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Saintspirit
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeWed May 25 2011, 09:07

I's say he is, and as I am also an Eldar player I hope he is, because then maybe the pl:s of the next eldar codex will be as awesome as he is.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeWed May 25 2011, 10:37

His profile in the book certainly suggests he is a Phoenix Lord.

I am a massive fan of striking scorpions and more specifically Karandras (as my name suggests) so this is one of the most important fluff aspects for me.

From what I re-call in the Dark Eldar background on Drazhar, he doens't actually speak. Therefore you could conclude that he is Ahra, and that the reason he is called Drazhar is simply due to Dark Eldar renaming him as he has never revealed his identity.

However, the old fluff also mentions him "burning with dark light of chaos" or something along those lines.

Is he infiltrating the dark Eldar? Setting up covens worshipping the dark Gods? Bringing them down from the inside? Attempting to breach the webway and allowing the dark gods access to all areas of the Eldar domain (craftworlds, black library, exodite worlds) etc.

Or is he simply an evil bugger?
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Archon
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeWed May 25 2011, 20:06

I've always beleived that Drazhar is in fact the fallen Pheonix Lord Arhra. The background has always seemed to suggest this. What his goals are, that am not so sure about.
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Torpedo Vegas
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeThu May 26 2011, 13:03

I'd say "yes."
His stats are identical to that of a Phoenix Lord, he gives the squad he's in Klaivex powers, and he has an "ancient" warsuit
I faintly recall that originally Incubi where fallen Striking Scorpions, and the coolness value of having a Phoenix Lord chilling out in Cammoragh is too high to waste.
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PostSubject: RE: Drazhar: a Pheonix Lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeTue May 31 2011, 21:31

Personaly, I think he's a Daemon, created by all the Dark Eldar's bloodshed and excess. Half way between Khorne and Slaanesh, he was cast out of the warp for not killing for pleasure, but just because he should. Khorne didn't like him either because he was to honorable warrior, so he fled to Commoragh, where he dwells now...

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Torpedo Vegas
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 01 2011, 07:21

While I like the idea of him being a Daemon, I can't imagine a daemon making his way into the heart of Commorragh undiscovered. Though the Craftworlders do have their own Daemon so its not impossible.
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shadow hunter
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 01 2011, 10:49

No I dont see the Daemon option being plausible.

If not Ahra, then it is possible he is a(nother) pheonix Lord. Afterall, it does say there might be more out there - the suit just waiting for a new warrior to don the armour and start the Pheonix Lords life anew.

Maybe a dark eldar warrior has put the suit of a phoenix lord on, and corrupted the spirits that lived within. Turning it from the noble warrior it was, to a bloodthirsty killer.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 01 2011, 12:16

I don't think Drazhar is bad. Yes, he make chilli con carne from people but not because he like, I guess.

I would say that if he is (Eldar) phoenix lord, his Dark Eldar life merged with previuos incarnations and he thought Incubi shrine is best place for him.


I sense strong Clint Eastwood theme.

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Arhra
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 01 2011, 22:16

With our last Codex, I would have said No.

With our new one, I'd definitely say Yes.

His abilities and stats are exactly like the other PLs (and points cost), and his fluff seems to encourage it as well.
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Haunter!
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 02 2011, 00:59

Each aspect of Khaine reflects the bloody god in some way (albeit loosely), the Incubi just streamline their discipline to outright murderous efficiency. Drazhar embodies the aspect in the purest form. He is simply a well practiced killing machine without compare. He does not kill out of malice and he does not kill out of mercy. He kills because killing is what the Incubi do and he is the best of them.

The idea that he's a daemon is a bit absurd to me. The webway is sealed off from realspace and the warp and is more or less invisible to daemons unless a psyker attempts to commune with the warp while there. I just don't see how a daemon of any type just managed to wander into Commorragh on a whim. If joe-shmoe bloodletter can do it, what's stopping Slaanesh hirself from coming in? That's called a plot hole and a rather large one at that.

I find it more plausible for Araha himself or someone imbued with his memories wearing his armor to be Drazhar.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 02 2011, 05:48

If one buys into what Path of the Warrior says, then a Phoenix Lord is just a really old Exarch, but with a dominant spirit so those who the absorb just die, instead of getting stuck in spiritual limbo.

As such, I don't think it matters who's body is in the suit,I'm fairly sure it is Ahra. He was apparently all about killing, with Kharandras (or how ever you spell that) adding the stealth element to the Striking Scorpion aspect.

He "burns with the dark light of chaos", but thats from a Craftworld perspective. Maybe he's just really, really evil, objectively anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 02 2011, 10:11

I still haven't painted my original model. I'd like a new one to come out - but not if it looks like the pic in the codex. I dont like that. I know some think it looks great - but personally i don't.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 02 2011, 12:30

@shadow hunter wrote:
I still haven't painted my original model. I'd like a new one to come out - but not if it looks like the pic in the codex. I dont like that. I know some think it looks great - but personally i don't.

Unfortunately for you, it seems all of our new models very closely resemble the artwork in the Codex. Fortunate for me though, I like the new Drazhar pic. I would probably use the old one as a Klaivex.

I just wish Drazhar came with a PGL...
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shadow hunter
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 02 2011, 12:40



@Arhra wrote:

Unfortunately for you, it seems all of our new models very closely resemble the artwork in the Codex. Fortunate for me though, I like the new Drazhar pic. I would probably use the old one as a Klaivex.

I just wish Drazhar came with a PGL...

Well, generally I admit the models have been amazing - so I will wait until if one is released to decide. In 3-D it may change my mind.

Besides - i'm not talking to you. You destroyed my shrine!!! geek
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 02 2011, 21:06

Quote :
I still haven't painted my original model. I'd like a new one to come out - but not if it looks like the pic in the codex. I dont like that. I know some think it looks great - but personally i don't.
Agree, it dosnt seems badass enough.

But afther Path of Warrior its clear he was pheonix lord....btw I love that book, hope for some DE novel from BL.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 02:57

He probably is, I just wish GW would have given him cooler armor and weapons. All of the other phoenix lords have ancient weapons with cool rules and such. Drazhar has normal incubi stuff. And for being a phoenix lord I would have expected him to be more inspiring to his unit than your typical klavax.

Personally, I hope that when the Eldar codex comes out they improve the phoenix lords some (at the very least give them a 4++) and FAQ in some new changes to Drazhar at about the same time. Very underwhelmed with him rules wise.

From a background point of view, I wonder why he kills his followers? I'm thinking it's because it's kind of a reverse spirit stone mechanic where other phoenix lords die and absorb someone else and gain all their knowledge, maybe drazhar kills people and steals their souls to gain new knowledge. Maybe he sees a new technique or something from one of the others and kills them to master it?

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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 10:04

@Nvs wrote:
From a background point of view, I wonder why he kills his followers? I'm thinking it's because it's kind of a reverse spirit stone mechanic where other phoenix lords die and absorb someone else and gain all their knowledge, maybe drazhar kills people and steals their souls to gain new knowledge. Maybe he sees a new technique or something from one of the others and kills them to master it?
I always imagined that it was because he somehow wanted to destroy hierarchs he saw as weak, but maybe your idea makes a bit more sense.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 11:05

Sounds like Sylar from Heros
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 06 2011, 08:30

I've always viewed Drazhar as Ahra, the Dark Father, and the new Codex has only gone to strenghten that belief.

@Nvs wrote:
from a background point of view, I wonder why he kills his followers?
In my opionion it is because he is the "perfect" Exarch. An Exarch, in Eldar society at least, is pitied more than he is respected. An Exarch has lost himself to the path of the warrior, there is no going back for him and he practices his art to perfection. One day he may be so consumed by the path and what fate has in store that he becomes the new vessel for the Pheonix Lord of his temple.

Now if we accept that the Pheonix Lords were simply the best Exarch's of their temple (this still takes in the idea that they were the original founders of the temples, who better to perfect the art?), then we can accept that Ahra would simply have continued to perfect the art of killing. This may be why the Craftworlders consider that he "fell into fire" or whatever phrase they use for him. I can't imagine them liking somebody who's sole aim in life is to kill for the sake of killing.

Under Ahra the Striking Scorpions were brutal and efficent killers, it was only when Ahra left and Khandras became Pheonix Lord that he tempered the killing streak with the skills of the hunter. This is where the Scorpions and the Incubi differ. The Scorpions are taught self control now, the Incubi are a direct continuation of Ahra's teachings.

So how does this link with Drazhar being Ahra? If we look at the text in his description it says that although the Incubi have left their past lives behind, the flame of ambition still flickers in them. This is clear in their rank structure, at the end of the day they are dark eldar at heart.

Drazhar has overcome that. He is the personification of Ahra's teachings, he lives to kill. Nothing more, nothing less. He doesn't speak, he doesn't "rest", he will barely acknowledge anyone. He is the perfect weapon. Even his "name" is a title given to him by the Incubi, he is the Living Blade.

If that is not the "perfect" end to the path of the incubi then I don't know what is. We could say that Ahra has ceased to be, as it doesn't matter to him anymore. He has no idea of self now, he is a living weapon.

So why does he kill other Incubi? For the same reason Ahra burnt the temples of the other Pheonix Lords. I would say to "prove" his perfection but I don't think that matters to him. I think it's simply because he can.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 06 2011, 09:40

I would have loved if they had added more on the relationship between Karandras and Arha. Expanding and adding things. I always imagined that Karandras might be on a personal vendetta to avenge the Pheonix Lords by slaying Ahra. Tracking him down, and proving that he is the true hunter killer.

It has no basis on anything other than my personal imagination - but Karandras is my favourite character in the whole of 40K (hence the name).

I was a little dissappointed the pheonix lord stats weren't progressed a little like so many other things have been. I can assume the craftworld PL's will stay very similar to their current incarnation - which is a shame.

I really love the Exarch theme and background too - but cant help but think the stats of those are somewhat underwhelming too. Maybe 2 wounds would be good? I remember when they were characters in their own right.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 06 2011, 10:54

@GrenAcid wrote:
...btw I love that book, hope for some DE novel from BL.
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@Preacher wrote:
So why does he kill other Incubi? For the same reason Ahra burnt the temples of the other Pheonix Lords. I would say to "prove" his perfection but I don't think that matters to him. I think it's simply because he can.
This is the same reason aspirants must slay an Exarch in combat before they can even become an Incubi. They are the purest of Khaine's aspects and embody nothing but murder and destruction and anything less than total dedication to that goal is a weakness; the weak do not deserve to live.

I would also say it is also to prove dominance. "Incubus" is derived from the Latin of "to lay upon" making an incubus "he who lays upon." Even out of a sexual context that many myths are associated with, it implies the one asserting themselves over (or preying on) others. We see this in the game fluff of the Incubi with their power structure being based solely around martial superiority and the destruction of the weak.

Drazhar may do it simply to strengthen the Incubi as a whole, though. Remove the weak links and reinforce the others. The knowledge that an executioner is always looming over them may be enough to keep the Hierarchs focused on what they should be focused on: killing.

@shadow hunter wrote:
I would have loved if they had added more on the relationship between Karandras and Arha.
I'm hoping that Drazhar makes a cameo in Karandras' next codex entry. It would be nice to see something along the lines of the the two crossing paths (and blades) on occasion and references to an old feud, perhaps an outright hatred. It is a shame that if we are to see any more of this fleshed out, it would most likely be in the codex of the lesser kin and would probably only be an aside. Anything is better than nothing, however.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 06 2011, 13:27

@shadow hunter wrote:
I would have loved if they had added more on the relationship between Karandras and Arha. Expanding and adding things. I always imagined that Karandras might be on a personal vendetta to avenge the Pheonix Lords by slaying Ahra. Tracking him down, and proving that he is the true hunter killer.

I agree. If they had a book detailing Arhra's fall... I think my life would be complete.

@shadow hunter wrote:

I was a little dissappointed the pheonix lord stats weren't progressed a little like so many other things have been. I can assume the craftworld PL's will stay very similar to their current incarnation - which is a shame.

Same. I'm now worried that Drazhar and PL's stats will be 'locked in' now. When the new eldar book comes out, I hope GW doesn't say "Oh we can't change Harlequins or PLs because then the DE players would get angry." I'd rather see progress with both of them. Harlies aren't as hot as they used to be due to the rending nerf and PLs (including Drazhar) could use invul saves or points drop.. or grenades...
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PostSubject: Re: Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord?   Is Drazhar really a Pheonix lord? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 06 2011, 20:44

@Haunter!
Thx....
Quote :
I agree. If they had a book detailing Arhra's fall... I think my life would be complete.
Not only yours.....it would be cool piece of pre-fall fluff to.

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