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Arrex
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PostSubject: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 12 2011, 20:55

So I've been playing Dark Pansies since the early days of 3rd edition, and that means I have a lot of the older models. When the new stuff came out I was mostly impressed, mostly...

I like the new warriors, pretty much ALL the new vehicles, the new Wyches I mostly like (The old ones really weren't too shabby), and the Incubi I'm sorta half and half on. (I liked the distinctiveness of the old guys helmets, but the new ones are definitely trick) I'm also a BIG fan of the spare parts on the sprues, it's way better than the old "spiky bitz". Totally awesome conversions to be had from mixing new legs and torsos with old helmets and guns too.

Here's what I don't like: The new HQs. IMO, the new Archon is weak sauce, and the Haemonculus sculpt might be the worst in the entire range. I'll take the old classic Haemonculus any day of the week over this new guy. I'm also not sold on the new Talos, matter of fact, all of those new coven models look like they ripped straight out of the Cryx army book.


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Baron Tordeck
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 12 2011, 21:50

I agree that most if not all the Coven models are the weakest part of the range. I hate the talos so much I am converting one to look like the old school version.

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 12 2011, 22:24

I'm making "Looted Wraithlord" myself. Also, I don't quite like new Incubi. They DO look cool but IMHO "not 3+ save".
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 12 2011, 23:56

I actually like the new Talos, and definitely prefer it to the old one. The old one used to remind me of a scorpion Mighty Max toy that I had, so I didn't want one because it seemed somehow infantile. Just my strange brain I suppose! I liked the distinctive look of the old Archon, with his flayed shin face and hand full of claws, though both that model and this one aren't imposing enough. Last generation features with current generation styling/sculpting for him would look phenomenal. And more height.

I don't mind the Haemonculus actually, I just wish there were more ways to make him look distinctive - you can have six in your army, and who wants six models the same? I know I don't. That's why I'm converting my Grotesques.

I did quite like the old Beastmasters, even if they did look too much like Dark Elves - that fan wing thing was cool. Incubi look better, shame they're in super wiggly Finecast. Everything else, including vehicles is a massive step up from what was an incredibly dated looking army.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 13 2011, 03:29

Wooosh, let's see...

Old Incubi are better than new - old had more gothic style and cooler masks.
Old Wyches are better than new simply because old Wyches looked like daring Gladiators (new ones don't feel unarmored to me - more skin sez I!)
New Warriors are indeed better than old - but old still look okay and bitswap in fun ways.
Old Talos is *way* superior to new floating fat confused guy Talos. Give me a pain engine controlled by twitching, screaming, skinned, slave any day.
New Wracks (Grots) are better than old, though old had that awesome GW 80's feel which I like in a nostalgic way.
Old Raider/Ravager is, in my opinion - equal push with new Raider/Ravager. Both are great models.
Old RJBs I rank as superior to new, though I'll admit new are sweet, I just felt the old ones looked more like they would be used to slice people open as you zip past them.
New Hellions are dramatically superior to old. Old are still kinda fun, but can't compete.
New Scourges are superior to old, though only due to better Swooping Hawk tie-in.
Old Archon is Superior to New. (he's wearing someone's face on his face - your arguments are invalid!)
New Lelith is superior to old (duh! She's also the only new Wych who looks like a Wych should)
Old Haems are superior to new (I like new though, but the old ones feel classier and more 'real' I'm not sure I'm down with mystical floating Haems who are still basically less effective than a single Ork Nob)

I do love a lot of the new line though - I just wish certain elements had made a stronger transition forward.

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Deneris
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 13 2011, 05:03

Basically, I like the bulk of the new DE stuff better because, well... it's plastic. I have many "fond" memories of trying to get the old Talos's arms to stay on, as they had a VERY small join that was hard to pin. I'm playing with the ways of mating my old metal Talos with bits from a new one...
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 13 2011, 07:27

@Arrex wrote:
So I've been playing Dark Pansies since the early days of 3rd edition, ...

Dark Pansie:

New versus old models. Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTvIdNOC68eE0uLezxBuK3tEpK_9H1ebhywK1qD3x1I-pgQyhdA

Dark Panzee:

New versus old models. Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT8cpI7Aao76ssXs_F-ITfr70xVFXi1seQybvUtSURUeHFVyo2HRg

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Saintspirit
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 13 2011, 09:58

I frankly find everything new superior to the old stuff (might be of course since I didn't start until they got the update). I thought the Archons looked just ridiculous, the Incubi where kinda cool but their body shapes where quite odd, and the others where IMO just hideous.

That said, I don't really find the new Talos very congenial, only better than the earlier one. I still don't like it that much.

Only thing I could imagine using from the old range is the caped Incubi from Vect's box, I think.

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Foo
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 13 2011, 14:47

I agree with Saintspirit. I never started playing until last year, but having seen the old models, I can't believe anyone prefers them. They're all so clunky and thick!

I can understand preferring some of the stylistic ideals, but the sculpts are just so much better now that I can't look at the old ones as being on the same level.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 13 2011, 15:53

In "technical" terms, new (plastic) models are comparable or even worse* than old plastics. Don't be fooled by "we improve our production process". Didn't happen from early '90 Razz
At least changes weren't noticeable.

However while "how" didn't changed "what" did, in good way. Poses and sculpts are better. Similar with dividing models - it's smarter, so You have more parts that allow You to make more poses.



* I actually see old 3rd ed Boyz [16 pack] are superior to ones in current set. Have both on shelve. New bits are more interesting bad badly molded. Good replaced best...

I also have to agree new Haemonculi is... khem. I guess old Haemi/Urien OR headswap of new Urien is way to go.
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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 13 2011, 21:01

@Foo wrote:
I agree with Saintspirit. I never started playing until last year, but having seen the old models, I can't believe anyone prefers them. They're all so clunky and thick!

I can understand preferring some of the stylistic ideals, but the sculpts are just so much better now that I can't look at the old ones as being on the same level.

Sorry, unless you've been playing since third edition, you cannot comment. Wink

Seriously though, while I like most of the new models, most of us that have a history with this army agree the new HQs are on the weak side, and the Coven models might very well be quantifiably inferior. The new warriors ARE better, but using some of the older heads and splinter rifles makes for something even more awesome. I'm also half and half on the Wyches, mostly because the old sculpts were fairly good poses, and FAR more durable than the new ones. Which brings me to this:

The biggest problem with new versus old Dark Eldar models?

The new ones are even more fragile and spindly than the old ones.

I think the new vehicles are better looking in every single way, but they are almost totally impossible to transport without breaking something. If you drop ANYTHING from the new range, even onto a carpeted floor, it's going to shatter like a miniature ice sculpture. All those tiny needle thin spears and spikes are just so difficult to protect.


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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 13 2011, 21:51

@Arrex wrote:
The biggest problem with new versus old Dark Eldar models?

The new ones are even more fragile and spindly than the old ones.

I think the new vehicles are better looking in every single way, but they are almost totally impossible to transport without breaking something. If you drop ANYTHING from the new range, even onto a carpeted floor, it's going to shatter like a miniature ice sculpture. All those tiny needle thin spears and spikes are just so difficult to protect.

And this is fine point about production methods. You see, most manufacturers of real scale models is fully aware of limits of their materials - You can't make thin but sturdy elements from plastic (and especially from resin!), so we have stuff like etched brass and pewter details.

New versus old models. P1070268

Like here. Wheels (sadly painted) are made from resin, ventilation grids (behind turret) are etched brass, tracks are pewter, barrel is "composite" of iron tube and brass carved with lathe.

But assembling and painting those models require skill and knowledge AND patience. Hard to expect that from 14 year old (main GW target, check how many 18+ players You have in Your area to see how wrong is GW.). But we have models made for those "easy" customers.
Forge World is doing that. Some small mini manufacturers also (I have MAS Russian Goblins, their "Pepesha" SMGs, hands and heads are metal while body is from resin. Maybe this is MAS inability to produce fine details from resin lol.)

Dunno, maybe picking full set of plastic WWII Tiger tracks in 1/35 scale (224 separate, highly detailed links) for 2 pots of GW paints made me grumpy about that?

Sorry for OT, I should moderate myself Razz
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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 14 2011, 04:46

I really don't have a soft place in my heart for the old stuff. It was cool for the time, but looks silly compared to the new stuff. And yes, the new coven stuff does look a lot like Cryx...both of which I love!

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dizylizy
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 14 2011, 11:23

I find it really interesting that people feel that any of the old range is superior to the new one. I would say that even if none of the molding techniques have changed what really matters to me is that the sculptors skills have increased. Proportions of individual models are eons from what they used to be, hands are the right size, heads actually look sensible. Also I find that for the most part variety and interest in posing of individual models has improved immensely(in general for all of GW).

would agree that our HQ choices are a little weak in their posing, with the exception of Urien I don't love any of them, though I feel that way about a lot of armies, I wish they would make more plastic officer kits like the space marine captain kit.

There are definitely issues with the current range but I feel like the models we have now have a greater amount of effort put into them(for the most part). It would be nice to have a larger variety in Grotesques, Incubi and Mandrakes (I don't know what the Wrack kit is like). I would much rather try to make a pretty model look dynamic than make a dynamic model look pretty.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 14 2011, 15:57

I'm finding it interesting how easy it is to dismiss the old models because the new models are "better." How are we defining this "better" that defeats the new models?

Proportions?
Detail work?
Pose quality?

Okay, what about these;

Feel?
Thematic connection?
Mood?

I think a lot of the old models are better because they give me a feel and mood connected to the theme of DE that I feel is more appropriate. A Wych is a dynamic gladiator who exposes flesh in a daring risk in the arena and eschews armor all to further titillate and enrapture the crowds and to taunt their opponents.

Then I see a naked warrior in a thong with a shoulder pad on or...a fairly heavily armored unit that has one arm and maybe a bit of leg or belly showing. Which feels more like the mocking gladiator you expect?

I think the old line wins in a lot of places because of bits like that. The capture the gothic and horrible feel of the DE far better than the new and flashier designs do.

Also, let's be frank, there are quite a few pieces (Talos, Archon, and RJBs come immediately to mind) where there isn't a giant gap in the quality of the models. Look at the old Talos and some of H.R. Giger's work - then tell me you think the model is clearly inferior to that floating fat guy new model. I'd happily claim the Talos as the superior model even though I'm willing to admit some greater skill went into the other.
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 14 2011, 17:54

Personally for me, even if we consider the original concept the overall composition of the model's surfaces is much more important to having a pleasing design. I want to have a variety of ways to paint them, I am not interested in a model that it just armour and skin, I would like to see some fabric or some other details.

If we compare the old wyches with the new ones I feel like the only difference in conceptual execution(aside from weaponry) is the spandex body suit, which in my opinion makes the model more interesting to paint and doesn't compromise the image or idea. In some cases the old wyches have ridiculous shoulder pads that are much bulkier than anything that the current wyches wear. I also feel like the one huge factor for me is the new models actually look like elves, I look at the old wyches and quite often get the impression of an Amazon warrior based on the proportions and shape of everything going on.

I mean obviously I'm biased and I do see some validity in what people who like the old models are saying but I feel like the best I want from the old model is for certain ones to be mashed together with the new ones.

Also I really like artistic debates, I like being a devils advocate.

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 14 2011, 18:17

De gustibus non est disputandum.

IMHO We can't compare models that got "total makeover" like Wyches or Taloses or Mandrakes (that even may apply to Reavers, old were like oversized American choppers while new are "Hondas"). How burning quasi-daemon can be compared with bondage ninjas?

But we can compare similar models: Warriors, Haemi, Archon, Raider/Ravager, Old Grots/Wracks, Hellions, Scourges, Reavers and Warp Beasts.


IMHO most of those are improved due to more "swiftly" sculpted models. I even like new Incubi, despite fact that I HATE them for beeing so similar to Kabalites.
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 14 2011, 18:52

@Local_Ork wrote:
De gustibus non est disputandum.

lol one google later and I understand.

All this is just my opinion, I'm an art student so I'm used to really backing up my opinion so as to most benefit the discussion/debate/critique.

As for comparing old models to ones that got an overhaul I was just debating Thor's point about the old wyches being more thematically appropriate than their new incarnations. And adding that as a personal taste I would to some degree rather have something enjoyable to paint than something that is 100% thematically appropriate.

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 17 2011, 22:31

I just finished painting up a 3rd edition Talos kitted out with a few tastefully selected bitz from the new sprue, and I definitely like it better than the new model. Pics coming soon.
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 00:56

while i loved the old edition of the DE i hated the models.

most of them were 'shudder' Gary Morley sculpts with the cool ones being @~# damn cant remember his name now (is it paul muller?), but he used to be a painter with the 'eavy metal team. he did some of the only cool sculpts of the old range.

the new range is a more cohesive look with a very definative style, unlike the older models.

but i do agree with local ork about the quality drop in GW plastics since the first edition of modern plastic kits, i remember the colour change over time in the plastics of both orks and SM sprues. the first ones i had (will have been on day of release LOL) were dark grey and really tough, they would cut nice and clean and would not have any flex or give in the smaller detail areas..... unlike the 'new and improved' plastics that are a lighter grey and as you know wobble and flex on thinner joints.

i still love the dais incubi though (the only ones of the old line i actually liked.... Gary Morley again with the old incubi.... shudder), give those new heads and new weapons and they would be sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet.
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 00:59

@dizylizy wrote:
I would to some degree rather have something enjoyable to paint than something that is 100% thematically appropriate.
There are multiple miniature companies that produce enjoyable to paint figurines.
The ones GW produces are theoretically supposed to represent specific units within a culture they have created - I'd rather have them match their own work than focus on whether or not it will be 'fun' to paint since that part is probably fairly subjective anyway.

I'll at least agree - easy to assemble - is on my desires list. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 18 2011, 11:23

@Thor665 wrote:
@dizylizy wrote:
I would to some degree rather have something enjoyable to paint than something that is 100% thematically appropriate.
There are multiple miniature companies that produce enjoyable to paint figurines.
The ones GW produces are theoretically supposed to represent specific units within a culture they have created - I'd rather have them match their own work than focus on whether or not it will be 'fun' to paint since that part is probably fairly subjective anyway.

I'll at least agree - easy to assemble - is on my desires list. Wink

But alternatively they aren't just a gaming company, they are in competition with many of those other hobby companies. There are guys at my local store who spend all their time painting and modelling and almost literally never play. I wasn't saying just throw the fluff out the window but there needs to be some give and take between the different needs/wants represented in this hobby.

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 19 2011, 04:39

New versus old models. 298565_297129843630894_100000016420630_1241126_202567940_n

Not the best pic, but I definitely dig the older Talos over the new one.
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 20 2011, 03:34

I don't think the presence or lack of nudity is what makes something look like a gladiator to me.

These dudes seem like gladiators, sure. They have tridents and stuff. They also have grossly misshapen heads and look like they got sent to the gladiatorial pits because of their crippling encephalitis.
New versus old models. Dark+eldar+wyches+old
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PostSubject: Re: New versus old models.   New versus old models. I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 20 2011, 04:31

Historically Gladiators fought with a lot of bare skin showing. It was part of the point of the show in Rome.

I'm willing to agree that the new models are more crisp and better sculpted technically - but they look less like Gladiators and more like 'random dudes with knives' to me. Technically speaking - Transformers by Michael Bay is a superior movie to El Mariachi - but I know which one I'm going to watch for good action.

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