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 Hellions, Hellions Hellions

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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 02 2011, 22:39


Right guys I am going to post up my tactica on Hellions.
It's how I use them and may not suit everybody out there but will hopefully give you some food for thought. This is the first tactica I've done so if you see some obvious mistakes or flaws in it, be nice and point them out. Enjoy

Hellions suck, or do they? Lets have a look at this often maligned unit and see what is really going on with these guys. I’ll come straight out here and say that without adding Baron Sathonyx to your list I believe that Hellions are not quite worthless but very close to it. I’ll also say that much of what is contained within this tactica is based on how I run Hellions in my army.
That means essentially we are talking about 16 Hellions, Baron Sathonyx, Heamonculus and a Wrack unit. Why this set up? It’s what I have found to be the most effective at getting the best out of Hellions. But lets start at the beginning and build up the unit step by step to see what happens.


The Basic Hellion
We get a jump infantry model with a mixed bag of stats. WS and BS of 4 are nice enough so far. S and T of 3, what do we expect, we are Dark Eldar after all. Init 6, 1 wound, a 5+ save and 1 attack makes them sound like a slightly quicker warrior. All for 16 points and it doesn’t really sound that great so far.

However that stat line is misleading right away, why? Well the basic Hellion armed with a hellglaive gains an extra attack and gets +1 strength as standard, so we now have 2 attacks at S 4, sounds a bit better. Also on top of this he has a splinter pod, a 2 shot poisoned assault weapon, even better.

Compare now to our basic warrior and we have +1 attack, +1 S and a chance to shoot before we assault, with increased range and movement. Big drawback is that they are still almost twice the cost and are not scoring.

In my opinion there is really only one way to use Hellions successfully, and that is, in a large single group with Baron Sathonyx with the express intention of getting them to be fearless as soon as possible. This transformation takes place over 2 stages by using some neat rules within the codex and a named character.


Enter Baron Sathonyx
Baron Sathonyx is the cheapest of the named character HQ’s you can take for your army. GW have obviously designed these characters to add or give a certain style to your lists. The Barons role is to give a boost to his Hellion mates. The most obvious of these is his ability to turn them into Troops.

For 105 points I believe Baron Sathonyx to be a steal.
• Shadowfield
• PGL
• Stealth to his unit
• +1 to die roll to choose who goes first
• Re-roll dangerous terrain tests for his unit
• Re-rollable Hit and Run tests

Out of these the following help our Hellions

PGL: Offensive and defensive grenades, yes please. Hellions can now assault into cover without losing their high initiative, and also nobody gets a bonus attack when charging them. A real boost to their close combat ability.

Re-roll dangerous terrain tests: This makes the Hellions much more resilient whilst using cover, which they will almost certainly be wanting to do as they zip around the battlefield.

Re-roll Hit and Run Tests: Now we almost certainly pass the test and can re-roll if we don’t like how far we are going, makes getting out of a difficult combat just that bit easier.

Stealth: So your on that objective and really want to stay there, old Sathonyx can help here too. 3+ cover or if you are really determined to stay there go to ground for a 2+ save.

What has this done to our Hellions unit.

Overall the Hellions have becomes more mobile through their increased ability to nip in and out of cover. They have become more resilient with increased cover saves and an opportunity to get a more reliable hit and run result. Their combat ability has been increased through gaining a PGL. On top of this they are now a scoring unit.

Of course Bones of the Seer are a benefit to any Dark Eldar list and are not specific to Hellions.

Heamonculus and Wracks
Ok, I’ll admit that almost every unit in the codex benefits from pain tokens, but as this is specifically about Hellions that’s what I’ll be discussing. The key here is in your selection of pain token donators, after all it would be helpful if they could contribute to the army in some way after donating their PT’s. Step up to the plate my naked Heamonculus and 3 wracks. This combination is chosen for a couple of reasons, it’s cheap, and it creates another scoring unit.
I’ll briefly explain how I use these guys after the PT swap is complete. The wracks go and hide near an objective and camp down. By hide I mean hide, if at all possible these guys will be behind a building or other BLOS feature so that they are invisible to the enemy. You did remember to place that objective correctly didn’t you? The Heamonculus will join them ASAP, this allows for a bit of wound allocation shenanigans (only a little bit) but now gives you 5 T4 wounds out of sight who’s sole intention is to go to ground at every opportunity. 80 points for a scoring unit that is of no threat to the enemy. Come and get them. More often than not it is this unit that holds the objective in or nearest to my deployment area, job done.

So on to the PT swap and how it works.
Deploy the Baron with the Wracks. Deploy the Heamonculus with the Hellions.
On turn 1 the Heamonculus walks away from the Hellions leaving his PT behind. Hellions fly off with the PT. The Baron leaves the Wracks taking their PT and joins the Hellions. This unit now has Feel No Pain (FnP) and Furious Charge (FC) at the end of the movement phase of turn 1.

It is important to remember that it is only an IC that can join or leave a unit and not a unit that can join or leave an IC, and therefore the order of movement is very important.

It is also important that at this stage you do not end up with both IC’s attached to your Hellions as due to the split rules you will lose 1 PT to the Heamonculus when he leaves the unit.

Our Hellion now has the following stat line, with charging values in brackets.

WS:4 BS:4 S:4(5) T:3 I:6(7) A:2(3) Ld:8 Sv:5+

They also have a 4+ FnP roll, a +1 bonus to cover saves, virtual immunity to dangerous terrain tests and a bonus to hit and run rolls. All in all they are looking like a much more attractive proposition, but what can we do with them and how do we do it.

Battlefield Roles


To be honest this is probably the hardest part of the tactica to convince people about. Running some number crunching it’s pretty easy to pick a unit that will in any specific task outperform the Hellions, it’s difficult to put into words what they bring to the table, but here goes.
In a recent game against Blood Angels, my Hellion unit killed a squad of 3 multi-melta attack bikes, surrounded and wrecked a razorback killing the assault squad inside. It then held 2 objectives at the end of the game.
Is the unit worth what it cost to achieve that? There is no doubt that other units in the codex could have killed the attack bikes and others that could have wrecked the razorback just as effectively. But the key here is that the Hellions did both, and then held the objectives which were over 12” apart.
What I am finding more and more with Hellions is that it is the versatility that they bring to the list, as in the example above, that is the real benefit. The size of squad and the speed with which it can cover ground, whilst still getting 3+ cover saves, really helped here.


There are several tasks that we may like our Hellions to perform on the battlefield, lets look at them

Hellion Screen: A disadvantage of this tactic is that you lose the ability to get 2 PT’s on the Hellions immediately, if you set up for it in first turn. It’s one that distinctly changes the way the Hellions operate at least for a couple of turns. I have veered away from this recently but it’s worth discussing here.
A lot of our armies contain several transports, be they Venoms or Raiders, alongside some rather fragile heavy support choices, Ravagers, Razorwings and Void Ravens. It’s safe to say that we would like to keep these intact as long as possible, definitely beyond 1st turn, but we would also like them to be able to do some damage to our opponent. This means they are likely to be within range of the enemy’s heavy weapons and in danger of being taken down.
Terrain may not have been kind to us, it may be too low, not enough of it or in the wrong place for us to use. We may have 1st turn but be wary of our opponent stealing the initiative. Here is where the Hellion screen comes in to play.
These guys on their flying stand are at the perfect height for blocking line of sight to our fragile skimmers. Line these guys up, in front of the vehicles you want to protect, keep them close enough to provide cover, don’t allow gaps in the line in front of the vehicle that can be exploited. Sounds like suicide I hear you say but there are ways to avoid instant death to your squad.
Have Baron Sathonyx and the Heamonculus join the Hellion unit. This gives you an 18 strong unit with Stealth and FnP. Ensure you get at least half the unit in or behind cover. This screen gives your vehicles a 4+ cover save but due to the Baron the screen itself has a 3+ cover save and FnP against light fire and heavy bolters. It poses your enemy a serious question, try and shoot the vehicles or get rid of the screen.
As I say it’s not one I tend to use very often now, the Baron gives you first turn more often than not, you may have enough terrain on the table to eliminate the need for the screen and it fundamentally changes the way the Hellions work.


Objective Taker: 2 out of 3 games in 5th edition are based on controlling objectives so having a unit that can take and/or hold an objective is essential if we are to succeed in these games.
Our enhanced Hellions are a great option for the taking part of this role, but will struggle to hold an objective like almost any Dark Eldar unit. They are relatively fast at moving around the board with a potential 18” of movement a turn without charging. They are a large unit that can assault into terrain without losing their initiative (PGL) and can really dish out a high number of attacks at a unit they want removed.
Lets check that first, assuming they are going into cover against a tactical Space Marine squad: 34 Splinter Pod shots, 23 hits say 11 wounds, not to bad, probably 3 or 4 dead. Now they charge in 48 S5 attacks from the Hellions and 5 S7 attacks from Baron Sathonyx, all at Init 7. Against Marines that is 16 wounds plus another 3 from the Baron. Even power armour is going to suffer against that, losing 6 bodies.
So our unit has smacked down those marines and is now on an objective in cover and, if they weren’t already, they are now fearless, due to the award of another PT.

Our SM friends decide to send a tactical squad to take the objective our Hellions are camped on, lets say Sgt, 8 bolters and a melta gun.
If they decide to charge in then they only get 1 attack each (PGL) and hit last. They fire their bolt pistols in and kill 1 Hellion. They will suffer 7.5 wounds from the Hellions and 1 from the Baron, losing 3 guys before striking. So 6 attacks plus 2 from the power fist wielding Sgt. Causing 2 wounds, 1 dies and 1 dead from the fist. We win combat, the Marines can do what they want, because if they run we will shoot and assault next turn, if they stand we will Hit and Run to do exactly the same.

Lets say they want to shoot them off it, well we have a 3+ cover save and we also have FnP so unless they are shooting us with S6 weapons we are looking pretty solid.
17 bolt shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds and a meltagun wound. We likely lose 2 to the bolter rounds and 1 to the meltagun. They now can’t charge us. If they bring a flamer instead of the meltagun and hit say 5 Hellions then the wounds total increases to maybe 5 total. We are fearless so stand in the cover a bit lower in number but ready to aggressively defend the objective.

We can remove a unit of 10 Berzerkers from the objective just as easily, but will struggle to defend it against such a unit.

A squad of 10 Berzerkers tries to take the objective back. They will kill 1 Hellion with shooting pistols before assaulting. They will lose the same amount of casualties (3) as the marines coming in but will inflict 4 + 2 kills during the assault, so the Hellions lose by 3. Probably lose another 1 to Fearless rules but stand.
We will Hit and Run and then shoot and assault in the next turn with 18 pod shots, 24 S5 attacks and 5 S7 attacks. 2 Dead to shooting (18 x 0.667 x 0.5 x 0.33), 2 dead to Hellion attacks (24 x 0.5 x 0.667 x 0.333), plus 1 dead to the Barons attacks, making the Berzerker unit 2 strong.
Berzerkers hit back, 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 kill plus 3 attacks 2 hits, 2 kills from the fist.
Drawn combat, in the next round of combat the Hellions have 10 attacks plus 4 from Baron and should see off the Berzerkers.

So this unit can pretty effectively take an objective, and can hold it against other troop units. Of course under an assault from a specialised combat unit I would expect the Hellions to fold, as most troop units would.

Anti-Infantry: As seen above Hellions are pretty capable of attacking and destroying a basic troop unit on the charge. Lets look at some other infantry units they might have to deal with. Assume the Hellions have reached 3 PT’s at this stage. We will also assume that we are in a dessert and there is no cover available. If we use cover then the Hellions chances of survival increase due to gaining extra saves from the Barons stealth rule.

Lets run a comparison of our Baron and 16 Hellions against some common units we can expect to see on the battlefield.

Unit 1: Assault Terminators 3 Thunder hammer/Storm shield, 2 Lightning Claws
Assume Hellions attacking:
32 Splinter Pod Shots, 2 more from Baron, 23 Hits and 11 wounds. 2 terminators die
48 S5 attacks, 5 S7 from Baron, 24 Hits 16 wounds, 3 Hits 2 wounds From Baron
3 more Terminators die.
Hellions win.

Assume Terminators attacking:
Hellions, 32 S4 attacks, 4 from Baron, 19 hits 9 wounds, 1 dead terminator
2 Hammer and 2 LC terminators attack, no charging bonus. 4 Hammer and 3 LC hits, 3 Hammer and 3 LC wounds, 6 dead Hellions.
Hellions lose by 5, and probably lose 2 more to Fearless rules. Without using Hit and Run the Hellions will be wiped out in short order.


Unit 2: Wych Squad of Hekatrix with Agoniser, 9 Wyches with Razorflails
Assume Hellions attacking:
32 Splinter Pod Shots, 2 more from Baron, 23 Hits and 11 wounds. Wyches wiped out.

Assume Wyches attacking:
10 Splinter Pistol shots, 7 hit, 4 wounds, 2 FnP saves, 2 Hellions die.
Wyches assault but no bonus for charging.
16 normal, 2 razorflail and 3 Agoniser attacks. 8, 2 and 2 hits
Causes 4, 2 and 1 wound. 3 dead after FnP (2 normal and 1 Agoniser).
Hellions fight at same time, 28 attacks and 4 attacks, 17 hits causing 11 wounds,
5 Wyches die. Hellions win combat by 2. At this stage it really doesn’t matter what happens. If the Wyches run then the Hellions will pursue and gun them down, if the Wyches stay the Hellions will beat them down over a couple of rounds of combat or Hit and Run if desired.



Unit 3: 30 strong Ork Boyz Mob with Power Claw and Rokkit Launcher
Assume Hellions attacking:
32 Splinter Pod Shots, 2 more from Baron, 23 Hits and11 wounds. 11 Boyz die
48 S5 attacks, 5 S7 from Baron, 24 Hits 16 wounds, 3 Hits 2 wounds From Baron
15 more dead Boyz
Boyz attacks: 9 from Boyz and 3 from Nob, 5 and 2 hits, 3 and 2 un saveable wounds.
3 Hellions die. Orks lose by 12, again it doesn’t matter what happens they will die.

Assume Orks attacking.
29 Slugga shots and 1 rokkit shot. 10 Slugga hits, 7 wounds, 2 Hellions die
Orks charge, no bonus for charging.
Hellions attack first. 28 S4 attacks, 4 more from Baron. 17 hits, 8 wounds, 7 dead Boyz.
Orks attacks. 66 attacks and 3 Claw attacks, 33 and 2 hits, 22 wounds and 2 un saveable wounds, 9 dead Hellions. Hellions lose by 2. Lose 1 more to Fearless.
Hellions Hit and Run and get away, badly beaten.

In the examples above if the Hellions get a round of shooting and charge in first, and with their movement this should be possible, then they will likely win the combat. Without this they will struggle against any reasonable sized or powered unit.


Anti-Tank: 5th edition is populated by mechanised armies. The ability to counter mechanised armies is essential in any tournament list.
It would appear at first glance that Hellions are not well suited to this role, but the sheer mass of attacks our Hellion unit generates can be used to our advantage. It is also important that our Helions will be striking the rear armour of a vehicle and this is often a value of 10. Lets see what our Hellion Baron unit can do when charging against AV 10

Stationary Vehicle:
48 S5 attacks and 5 S7 attacks auto hitting
9 glancing and 10 penetrating damage rolls
Vehicle should be destroyed

Combat Speed Vehicle:
48 S5 attacks and 5 S7 attacks needing 4+ to hit
24 and 2 hits
4 glancing and 5 penetrating damage rolls
Vehicle is likely to be wrecked

Cruising Speed Vehicle:
48 S5 attacks and 5 S7 attacks needing 6's to hit
8 and 1 hit
2 glancing and 1 penetrating damge rolls
Vehicle will be suppressed and possibly damaged.

Obviously the slower the target vehicle moves the more damage we are likely to inflict, however if our Hellions are harrasing the vehicle enough to move then we are likely to be upsetting our opponents plans.
The one danger from this is our Hellions will be caught up in any resulting explosion, but we have our armour save and FnP to protect us and damage should be limited to a few casualties.


The Importance of Being Fearless
Away at the beginning of this tactica I mentioned that the aim here was to get your unit of Hellions and Baron Sathonyx to be fearless as soon as possible. We all know that being fearless allows our unit to ignore morale checks from combat and become subject to the No Retreat rule. Now this can be a mixed blessing for Dark Eldar. If we take a beating in a close combat and we fail our morale check there is a reasonable chance that with our high initiative that we will manage to escape. If we are fearless then we will be taking additional wounds instead and with our poor armour saves this is bad news.......normally.
Our Hellions have a couple of rules that allow us to take advantage of them being fearless, Feel no Pain and Hit and Run.
As we know FnP gives us an additional 4+ save on top of our normal armour save in most situations. So we are no longer quite as afraid of taking those extra wounds for being fearless. Lets say we lose a combat by 6 wounds, taking an extra 6 wounds, on our normal 5+ save we are going to lose 4 guys, FnP reduces that to 2 likely losses, allowing us to hang around longer.
But that is still not a particularly good situation, after all if we took a beating in the round of combat just passed then it’s likely we will take another in the round coming.
Hit and Run can solve this for us. Being locked in combat, through being fearless, means we can exploit our ability to Hit and Run when we don’t like our chances in the combat. All the usual dangers of Hit and Run need to be recognised but the Barons help allows us 2 chances of getting somewhere safe.
However we can use this combination of rules to zip around the battlefield with even more speed given the right circumstances. Let me explain.

SlingshotIt is turn 5 and you need to get on an objective quickly but its 30” away, out of even the Hellions range. However 20” away there is a unit of infantry that you can reach and assault. You recognise that you can’t beat them down but also that they will probably only beat you in combat by 3 or 4 wounds. Let’s assault them. We lose by 4 wounds, we take our fearless wounds and are locked in combat with them. Now we Hit and Run in the direction of our target objective. Anything but a 6 with a re-roll and we can initiate the move. We now get a 3D6 hit and run move which we can also re-roll to get the 10” we need to land on our target objective.
Now it’s situational I’ll admit but it’s a neat tactic to keep in mind and to have up your sleeve. You may still be assaulted or shot next turn but at least you are forcing your opponent to make choices. Of course you can use it to break out of combat on his turn to claim the objective unmolested if possible.


Combat Drugs
Hellions benefit from the Combat Drugs rule in our codex, however Baron Sathonyx does not. He just says NO! Kids. Fortunately our Hellions are so far out their heads that they appear not to notice Baron Squarepants in their midst and he only really spoils the party when one particular drug is being passed around. Time to check out whats available on the street corner tonight.


Hypex.3D6 Run moves. This is of no use with the Baron attached to the unit. You could always separate the Baron if you need the extra assault distance, but he’ll take his PGL with him. I’d say we don’t want this roll.

Serpentin. +1 WS. Now we have an increased chance of hitting those enemies. A nice boost but not the best available. No use against vehicles.

Grave Lotus. +1 STR. Now we can put the hurt on just a bit easier. With our PT’s we are now S6 on the charge, meaning MEQ’s get wounded on a 2 +. It also boosts our tank hunting ability, massed S6 attacks will hurt.

Painbringer. Re-roll to wound. Another chance to wound. Our damage output against infantry in assault gets a significant jump. No use against tanks as you cause damage not wounds.

Adrenalight. +1 Attack. Another combat boost. More chances to hit the enemy is always good.

Splintermind. Pain Token. Not that great as we already have our method of getting 2 PT’s on our Hellions. Can’t be used to get to get to fearless due to PT allocation rules. Only good for allowing either the Wracks or Heamonculus to keep their PT, I’d suggest the Heamonculus is the better option.


My preference is for Grave Lotus on Hellions. It gives us a boost against infantry and significantly increases our chances of causing damage to enemy vehicles, thus increasing the Hellions versatility.

Unit Options

The options open to Hellions are limited to taking a Helliarch and it’s wargear choices

Helliarch: Is it worth taking a Helliarch. It costs an extra 10 points for +1 leadership and an extra attack. If your running the Baron with the unit then it’s only the bonus attack you gain. However the Helliarch does open up some wargear options.

Agoniser: For 15 points, it’s one of the cheapest sources of the weapon in the book. Our goto combat weapon almost guaranteeing a kill in every round of combat.

Power Weapon: At 5 points it’s certainly cheaper then the agoniser but the Hellions low strength lets it down. Your really relying on getting the charge with FC to make this worthwhile.

Venom Blade: Costing 5 points and always wounding on a 2+, this selection has it’s merits if your short on points,

Stunclaw: 5 points for the ability to “capture” an independent character sounds enticing. However it really is an option with such a small window of opportunity that I believe it is best left at home.

PGL: 20 points for this option, however as I believe the Hellions should never be taken without the Baron, you have no need for this.

For me there is only one way to run a Helliarch and that is with the splinter pistol and agoniser option.


Update
Since starting writing this I have continued to adjust and adapt this unit. I now run it as The Baron and 20 Hellions including a Helliarch with agoniser. The cost of this unit alone is 450 points. Add in the Heami and 3 wracks for PT swapping at the start and the total investment is at 530 points.

A couple of bonus’s arise from taking this size of unit, it now needs 6 wounds from shooting to force an initial leadership check. With a 3+ cover save and FnP this is highly unlikely.
Whilst recently using this unit I have had several opponents either say they don’t know how to deal with it and then try to completely ignore it. WIN!!! It really is pretty enjoyable to watch opponents being so confused that they lose focus.

Something I have learned about the unit is to be careful about when you try and conga them. A smart opponent will target one end of the unit to charge and this can lead to you fighting back with a lot fewer models than you would like.
Also if you string them out from one deployment zone to the other, if you are forced to fall back it is only a very short distance that will be required to cause them to fall back off the table, even if the shooting took place at the other side of the board.





TO BE CONTINUED


Last edited by kenny3760 on Mon May 14 2012, 16:36; edited 14 times in total
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Aniasis
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 02 2011, 23:13

You did neglect on thing abou tthe Hellions. Even after all the benifits you have listed they still get COMBAT Drugs!!! Most of the effects can have a great impact on them as well.

Combat Drugs- Unlike before one roll is done at the start of the game and that’s what anyone with the rule gets. I like the change as it keeps things simple, but hate the change as it may hurt some units (example being the Archon and the 1 weapon skill, see below). I’ll cover each roll in the following entries.

1- 3d6 run= This can help with Running into cover or making sure you can get most of the unit into some kind of cover or in last turn helping you congo line between two diffrerent objectives

2- 1 WS= This can allow the Hellions to hit most MEQ or less on 3's instead of 4's

3- 1 STR= This can turn the hellions into a powerhouse unit on the charge and even threaten light Armor Vehicles and Walkers STR 5(6) on the charge!

4- Re roll to wound= Another huge buff to their Combat effectiveness. Turning your mass of 40 plus attacks into more wounds!

5- 1 Attack= Speaks for itself - Chaging into a unit with 4 Attacks per Hellion is an extra 17 attacks (Based on a unit of 16 + Baron)

6- 1 Pain Token= This can be usefuls in two direct ways. It can either allow you to begin with Fearless, or you can let your Haemie and Wracks keep one PT and Have FNP for when they go to ground to hold an Objective.

These Are just my opinion and thoughts.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 02 2011, 23:20

So we have 4 "direct damage multipliers", 1 "non-direct multiplier" (You are closer to second PT, which give FC, which is AWESOME) that is also "instant damage reductor" (by 50%, in most cases) and 1 "utility" roll (IMHO if You add Baron, whole unit is... good).

btw. its W.I.P. (writing in progress)

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 02 2011, 23:56

@Aniasis wrote:
You did neglect on thing abou tthe Hellions. Even after all the benifits you have listed they still get COMBAT Drugs!!!
This is a good point. Though I will note you're incorrect on #5 and #6

#5 - it would be +16 attacks, the Baron doesn't benefit from Drugs.
#6 - I presume he would actually deploy the Haem with the Wracks & Baron in this situation, and then split off the Baron - it would be impossible to manage to get the Hellions fearless unless you left the Haem attached to them, and who would want to do that?
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 03 2011, 00:09

I do apologize. You are correct. I did miss calculate those two. They are both still very Advantageous Boosts!
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 03 2011, 07:17

I was going to get to Combat Drugs later in the article.
It should also be noted that a roll of 1 is useless if the Baron is in the unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 03 2011, 12:49

Very clear tactica. Nice one kenny.

Too much pain token swapping cheese by far for my taste.

My advice... ignore everyone and keep doing it until it stops working.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 03 2011, 14:24

I'm not sure if Hypex (#1) expire when CD-less IC join unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 03 2011, 16:56

Of course it does.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 03 2011, 17:03

Well it doesn't 'expire'. But as long as the IC is joined, Hypex has no effect due to slowest Move rule.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 03 2011, 17:22

Which is annoying, Why would the LORD of Hellions, Not have Combat Drugs? It's the same as Lilith, why wouldn't she have them either?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 03 2011, 19:06

Because if she didn't use them she'd be the only Wych in the galaxy not to use combat drugs.
Oops! Sorry, wrong edition Wink. She doesn't use them because she's too awesome to need them! Yar!
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xzandrate
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 06 2011, 00:52

Yup, and unlike baseball, we pay more to use the person without drugs, than the version with drugs.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 07 2011, 19:13

Added a bit more in, let me know what you think or of any mistakes in there.
I'll get to the rest ASAP. 12 hour shifts and extra overtime days are destroying my freetime faster than the world economy is falling apart.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 07 2011, 20:54

How big do you think the Baron's Hellion unit should be? I usually see peopel suggesting atleast 15 to 20 models.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 07 2011, 21:31

@kenny3760 wrote:
So this unit can pretty effectively take an objective, and can hold it against other troop units. Of course under an assault from a specialised combat unit I would expect the Hellions to fold, as most troop units would.
I'm glad you included this (and also at least tried to show Hellions vs. something tougher than a Tac squad by having them face berserks).

I understand the basic urge to want to compare Hellions only vs. other Troop selections, but will note that can lead to some subjective considerations. I really think you ought to try and show them versus some of the stuff likely to be sent to deal with a 10+ unit of assault jump troops with an IC attached - only a fool is sending a Tac squad to do that Wink At least maybe them versus a charging mob of Orks or Grey Hunters, or Blood Angels if we're just talking Troops.

Also, as long as we're discussing their attack prowess vs. Tac Marines, you might wish to include discussion of them vs. GEQ/Orks as well.

Finally, I think consideration of what you think Hellions *shouldn't* try to fight or do would also be good to discuss.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 07 2011, 23:18

Some of the math I can provide. Against most MEQ Assault Squads, as well as Basic BA Assault squad getting the charge on the Hellions would work out as follows.

10 Assault with PW and Chaplian w/PW Assault At I5 at the highest

14 Hellions with Baron Strike with I6 -Strike First

Thats 26 attacks hitting on 4's
13 hits
6.5 Wounds
2.25 Dead

4 Attacks from baron
3 hit
1.5 wounds
.75 dead

3 Attacks from Helliarch w/agoniser
1.5 wounds
1 dead


That leaves 6 Assault and Chaplain
12 Base attacks (PGL Denies extra attack)
5 PW attacks

Base attacks 12
6 hit
6 reroll
3 hit
total 9 hits
6 wounds
2 save
2 fnp save save
2 dead
Negate one due to wound allocation to 2++ Shadowfield
1 Dead

Sarge PW 2 attacks
1 hit
.5 reroll
1 dead

Chaplian 3 PW attacks
2 hits
1 reroll. .66 hit
2 wounds - 2 dead

Total 4 dead Hellions lose by 2

Need to pass leadership on a 7 to hit and run, and assault them back after shooting.

Thats a 50 percent chance to Pass Morale.

Now this is assuming the Hellions left themselves out to be assaulted. Considering the Hellions have a greater Charge Range with fleet.




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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 08 2011, 00:11

You can't 'allocate' hits to the Baron - though you might or might not be able to force him to swing at the Baron. You also left out their shooting - though by my quick maths that's only 1 dead Hellion (maybe) as long as they are in cover (.555 dead Hellions, so generally either 1 or 0 dead).

Thanks for crunching that though.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 08 2011, 00:24

Thanks for the feedback guys, it's really appreciated. I am by no means an expert at doing this sort of article, it's the first time I've tried it, I'm really just going on my experiences with them, but I'll try and address the points raised.
I've got a battle arranged for next week against an ork/kan/big list which should provide some answers.
The Barons unit of Hellions I find best between 14 and 18, really depends on the rest of your lists make up. However I don't believe it's worth taking additional units of Hellions to make up troop slots. Without the baron these units will be severely handicapped.
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Aniasis
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 08 2011, 00:29

I did not put shooting in as i was only considering assaults, but yoru right the assault squad would get

11 shots
5.5 hits
3 wounds
1 save
1 FNP
so .5 dead if not in cover, if in cover it is .25 wounded.

Really minimal considering a DE player should be using cover with the Baron as much as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 08 2011, 01:23

I hope you mention some tactics I really like to use with the "hit and run" rule of theirs.

Example, an IG player tried to tie up my hellions with a squadron of sententials - he forgot about my HnR rule and thought I couldn't hurt them. At the end of the assault phase I declared the HnR and with the Baron it was almost guaranteed. I did break free and then got a good roll to reach deep into the enemy territory and then got to move in my movement phase the following turn (along with fleet) to contest the IG's objective - 3d6" is nothing to sneeze at not only to re-charge a unit you are assaulting but to sling shot yourself on the last turn to claim or contest a semi-distant objective. Love it!

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 08 2011, 04:50

@Aniasis - 5.5 hits? They're Space Marines baby, BS 4, they hit on 3, not 4. Methinks you're still thinking WS to hit.

7.33 hits.
4.88 wounds
No armor allowed if not in cover due to bolter AP.
2.44 dead not in cover thanks to FNP.
.813 dead if they are in cover after FNP

So 1 to 0 dead in cover, thank gawd, for a second you had me thinking my maths were really bad. Also, yes, they would want cover, but after an assault it's possible they're not in cover considering how big the squad would still likely be.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 08 2011, 04:52

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:
3d6" is nothing to sneeze at not only to re-charge a unit you are assaulting but to sling shot yourself on the last turn to claim or contest a semi-distant objective. Love it!
Amen - I wish Scourges were packing FNP - the number of times a DS Scourge squad has been assaulted and survived just to end up sorta...being there. Breaks my heart.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 10 2011, 00:59

A bit more added in. Nearly there. Any thoughts let me know
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions, Hellions Hellions   Hellions, Hellions Hellions I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 27 2011, 23:35

I'll be testing out this load out 9x Hellions w/Helliarch (stunclaw & splinter Pistol)
The Baron will be with them.

I mainly want to see how well pulling out IC with hit and run with the hellions for a nice curb stomping will do.
Any one else try this tactic/trick with them?

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