THE DARK CITY
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.



 
HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityRegisterLog in

 

 Blast weapons and strange outcomes

Go down 
3 posters
AuthorMessage
Kantalla
Wych
Kantalla

Posts : 874
Join date : 2015-12-21

Blast weapons and strange outcomes Empty
PostSubject: Blast weapons and strange outcomes   Blast weapons and strange outcomes I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 30 2016, 02:03

I have some questions about the correct way to deal with blast weapons. Mostly these are a consequence of a unit being hit but not targeted. I would like to know if I am playing the rules correctly.

As far as I understand, a unit is the target of an attack only if selected as the target in the shooting phase, and is not a target if say they are also hit by a blast or template weapon, or by split fire. By far the most common case would be a blast weapon, particularly large blasts.

Here is how I interpret these cases to work, or at least have seen these as the normal practice at my gaming club and local tournaments. If I have these wrong I would love to know:

Scenario 1) a unit of Kabalite Warriors is targeted by a blast weapon that scatters such that it hits a unit of Grotesques and a Talos. The strength of the weapon is compared to the target's toughness (p34) so will wound the units more easily than might otherwise be expected.

If the weapon was S6 or above it still wouldn't cause instant death because that is worked out against the toughness of the model not the target (p36).

Scenario 2) a Raider is targeted by a large blast, which doesn't scatter but also hits some Warriors near to it. The target doesn't have a toughness value, so it is unclear how the roll to wound would officially work. The normal practice in our group would be to effectively treat the Warriors as if they were a target, and roll against their toughness.

Scenario 3) a Wych unit is targeted by a blast weapon that is placed so it also touches a Raider, and does not scatter. The Raider was not targeted by a shooting attack (even though it was initially under the blast template) so it cannot jink.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My questions are:
1) Are any of my scenarios above wrongly interpreted?
2) Would the toughness of the target model count as a 'modifier' in terms of the instant death rule on p36? I assume that means extra toughness from wargear or the likes and not this situation.
3) Why is it normal practice to pragmatically assume the Warriors in scenario 2 are a target, but not the Raider in Scenario 3, or the Grotesques and Talos in scenario 1?
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
In Exile
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

Blast weapons and strange outcomes Empty
PostSubject: Re: Blast weapons and strange outcomes   Blast weapons and strange outcomes I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 30 2016, 03:03

@Kantalla wrote:

My questions are:
1) Are any of my scenarios above wrongly interpreted?
2) Would the toughness of the target model count as a 'modifier' in terms of the instant death rule on p36? I assume that means extra toughness from wargear or the likes and not this situation.
3) Why is it normal practice to pragmatically assume the Warriors in scenario 2 are a target, but not the Raider in Scenario 3, or the Grotesques and Talos in scenario 1?


Ok, so I COULD be wrong, but I doubt it, so here are the answers to your questions:

1. Yes, pretty much all of them are interpreted incorrectly.
2 & 3 not really valid due to #1.

I see how your gaming club came to it's interpretations, but that's the most maniacal, draconian "rules as written" argument for those rules I've ever seen.(And I'm a "rules as written" kind of guy.) Why would it wound a wraithknight on the toughness of a foot elf??! That's lunacy.

If they're trying to go THAT close to rules as written, I'd take this line, copied and pasted directly from the codex:

Rulebook wrote:
Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit.

Since the rulebook says wounds inflicted by blast weapons must be allocated to the closest model in the "target unit", then even if it scatters off onto a different unit, it still applies all wounds to the unit initially targetted.

Makes sense, right?!! No, it doesn't, but it's using the exact same logic your group has used across all of their rulings. People need to allow and understand that if a blast scatters onto a different target, or if the blast marker is placed even slightly over it, it is technically now a targetted unit. If it's not, all the rules fall apart.

Back to top Go down
Kantalla
Wych
Kantalla

Posts : 874
Join date : 2015-12-21

Blast weapons and strange outcomes Empty
PostSubject: Re: Blast weapons and strange outcomes   Blast weapons and strange outcomes I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 30 2016, 05:37

Thanks for the quick answer.

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

People need to allow and understand that if a blast scatters onto a different target, or if the blast marker is placed even slightly over it, it is technically now a targetted unit. If it's not, all the rules fall apart.

That's what I would think of as the sensible way to play blast weapons.

I would be really interested to know if that is the standard way things are played by most people.

I'm not sure how to argue for a change though, given the RAW seem to define 'target' in a way that only makes sense for shooting at a single unit.

Thanks for the clarification on the casualty removal, that at least takes away some of the silliness if things are interpreted overly literally.
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
In Exile
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

Blast weapons and strange outcomes Empty
PostSubject: Re: Blast weapons and strange outcomes   Blast weapons and strange outcomes I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 30 2016, 22:44

I think you missed the point, slightly. I wasn't quoting a rule only about casualty removal. It says "target unit", which is the crux of your gaming club's entire argument for silly rules. This means that if, in your example, a blast weapon scattered from kabalite warriors that were the original target onto a unit of grotesques that were NOT originally targetted, the blast weapon couldn't hurt the grots because casualty removal only refers to the "target unit", which your gaming club has deigned to exclude secondarily hit units from being.

Basically, if they maintain that only your initial target is considered the "target unit", then blasts can never effect anything except the unit you initially targetted.

This is quite obviously not the intent, and should spur a conversation about change with any reasonable person.
Back to top Go down
Massaen
Klaivex
Massaen

Posts : 2268
Join date : 2011-07-05
Location : Western Australia

Blast weapons and strange outcomes Empty
PostSubject: Re: Blast weapons and strange outcomes   Blast weapons and strange outcomes I_icon_minitimeSun May 01 2016, 07:14

I - much like betray - am going to say these are silly, silly rulings...

@Kantalla wrote:

Scenario 1) a unit of Kabalite Warriors is targeted by a blast weapon that scatters such that it hits a unit of Grotesques and a Talos. The strength of the weapon is compared to the target's toughness (p34) so will wound the units more easily than might otherwise be expected.

If the weapon was S6 or above it still wouldn't cause instant death because that is worked out against the toughness of the model not the target (p36).

Nope - the blast is rolled against each units T value separately. Pg 158 clears it up pretty well.

@Kantalla wrote:

Scenario 2) a Raider is targeted by a large blast, which doesn't scatter but also hits some Warriors near to it. The target doesn't have a toughness value, so it is unclear how the roll to wound would officially work. The normal practice in our group would be to effectively treat the Warriors as if they were a target, and roll against their toughness.

Again - page 158. Roll the vehicle vs AV and the unit vs T...

@Kantalla wrote:

Scenario 3) a Wych unit is targeted by a blast weapon that is placed so it also touches a Raider, and does not scatter. The Raider was not targeted by a shooting attack (even though it was initially under the blast template) so it cannot jink.

This is the most contentious - yes - you are correct that the raider can not jink as its not the target though it can still be hit.

@Kantalla wrote:

My questions are:
1) Are any of my scenarios above wrongly interpreted?
2) Would the toughness of the target model count as a 'modifier' in terms of the instant death rule on p36? I assume that means extra toughness from wargear or the likes and not this situation.
3) Why is it normal practice to pragmatically assume the Warriors in scenario 2 are a target, but not the Raider in Scenario 3, or the Grotesques and Talos in scenario 1?

1) - 1 and 2 are wrong, 3 is a contentious topic
2) not relevant with the blast rules correctly used
3) page 158...

_________________
Objective Secured - Western Australia's Premier 40k Event Organisers and Website
OBJECTIVE SECURED
Back to top Go down
http://objectivesecured.com.au/
Kantalla
Wych
Kantalla

Posts : 874
Join date : 2015-12-21

Blast weapons and strange outcomes Empty
PostSubject: Re: Blast weapons and strange outcomes   Blast weapons and strange outcomes I_icon_minitimeTue May 03 2016, 10:05

Thanks for the continued feedback. I agree with you both that these are silly rulings. I will try and restate my case that these rulings are silly.

Massaen - I think p158 is fairly clear if you interpret 'target' as anything under the blast template, which is the way I think it should work.

From what I can see on most forums, the standard ruling on Jink is that putting a blast on a model (other than the stated target) is not targeting, therefore no Jink in scenario 3. However, if that is not targeting, then the first two scenarios, which are clearly silly are RAW.

_________________
From a midnight sky, there is a searing flash, a boom, a brief moment of destruction, and then it is gone.
Kabal of Lightning Strikes - Project Log
Drukhari damage output analysis
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
In Exile
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

Blast weapons and strange outcomes Empty
PostSubject: Re: Blast weapons and strange outcomes   Blast weapons and strange outcomes I_icon_minitimeTue May 03 2016, 18:49

I'm of the opinion that most forums have that wrong as well, for all the same reasons you're pointing out here. If you go with their ruling on what a "target" is with a blast weapon, then the whole game devolves into ridiculousness like your gaming club is ruling.

A large forum circuit ruled that way ONLY on the jinking issue, and no one has apparently challenged it by pointing out these flaws. That needs to happen, but as of now, all those other forums aren't ruling the OTHER things in the way that your club does. Only the jink part. I think, rather than changing to your club's rulings, if this were brought to their attention, the jink part would change rather than everything else.
Back to top Go down
Kantalla
Wych
Kantalla

Posts : 874
Join date : 2015-12-21

Blast weapons and strange outcomes Empty
PostSubject: Re: Blast weapons and strange outcomes   Blast weapons and strange outcomes I_icon_minitimeFri May 06 2016, 06:36

Looks like the FAQ covers this off fairly well.

Vehicles are able to jink, and the other silly stuff can be reasonably discounted too.

_________________
From a midnight sky, there is a searing flash, a boom, a brief moment of destruction, and then it is gone.
Kabal of Lightning Strikes - Project Log
Drukhari damage output analysis
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
In Exile
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

Blast weapons and strange outcomes Empty
PostSubject: Re: Blast weapons and strange outcomes   Blast weapons and strange outcomes I_icon_minitimeFri May 06 2016, 06:57

Yeah, at least they got ONE thing right in the FAQ. lol
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Blast weapons and strange outcomes Empty
PostSubject: Re: Blast weapons and strange outcomes   Blast weapons and strange outcomes I_icon_minitime

Back to top Go down
 
Blast weapons and strange outcomes
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Rules: Queries & Questions
-
Jump to: