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WhysoSully
Kabalite Warrior
WhysoSully

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PostSubject: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 16 2016, 22:36

Going to a 1000 pt tourny in a week or two and still not too confident in my list building.  Got a lot of advice on my 1500 pt list so I figured I would ask for some more reducing it down for this tournament.

Rules: no flyers, no formation, no lords of war, no allies only 1 fortification up to 150 pts.  FOC from codex only.


HQ

Succubus
Haywire, glaive, Venom(cannon), 2x ur-ghuls (195)

Troops

10x kabalites, Raider, SR, NS (165)

10x kabalites, Raider, SR, NS (165)

10x Kabalites, Raider, SR, NS, DL (170)

Elites

Blasterborn (4x blasters), Venom (cannon), (180)

Heavy

1x Ravager 3x DL (125)


Succubus(glaive), 3 grots, a raider (NS/Sail) 275

2x (10 kabalites, raider (NS,SR)) 330

5x kabalite warriors, Venom(cannon) 105

5x trueborn, 4x blaster, venom(cannon) 180

1x ravager (3x DL) 125


Now that catch...  Thats 1015 points.  I have to shave 15, I am thinking either 1 warrior from each raider or one of the splinter racks.

(copied from my comment further down...)

Advice is appreciated.  

As a new Dark Eldar player it can be a bit intimidating hearing about the differences between the new and old codices. Although it can be discouraging, winning while you know you are at a disadvantage just feels so good...  

That being said, if any of you experienced guys wouldnt mind letting me bounce ideas off you from time to time (or helping me work on strategy) it would be greatly appreciated.  It can be frustrating trying to theorycraft a list with an experience pool consisting of 3 sub 1,000 pt games lol.  Sometimes I just cant find answers in battle reports, blogs, and podcasts.


Last edited by WhysoSully on Thu Mar 17 2016, 06:35; edited 2 times in total
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hydranixx
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hydranixx

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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 01:04

I want to like your list, but I think it could be improved on dramatically. It really depends what the rules for the tournament are (single detachment or multiple?), and what models you have access to.

As list generic advise, I'd shy away from Kabalite Gunboats. They're too many points and much too fragile for how short ranged they are. The changes to templates hurting occupants of open topped vehicles means that a few flamers will kill all of them without much trouble.

Drop the Urghuls. They're easily the worst of all 4 choices the Court offers. A pair of Sslyth would make great bodyguards for the Succubus if she's not going with Grotesques, and they're definitely better than Urghuls.

For starters, Scourges are top notch anti tank, arguably better than your Trueborn. Reavers are great, so if you're interested in them, I'd wholeheartedly recommend them. Basic 5 man Kabalite units in Venoms are cheaper and operate from a longer range as you don't feel the need to get in 12" to use them. Blasters are optional depending on points. Grotesques are incredibly strong in low point game if your opponent isn't prepared for them ie a tournament.

For some idea, here's a crazy all-in list for a 1000 points CAD + Grotesquerie. Credit goes to @MHaruspex for the list. I think it's rock solid and will have some really good match ups, because at only 1000 points the usual counters for Grotesques are few and far between.

1000 Point List:
 

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WhysoSully
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 01:20

I really want a grotesquerie but man I cant afford it.  Why GW decided to make them 25$ a model is insane.  As someone new to the hobby converting them seems like a daunting task especially when the real model looks so cool.  


On the + side, I have everything in that list except for the grots =(

Damn grots.


I actually just checked the rules again and this is no flyers, no formation, no lords of war, no allies only 1 fortification up to 150 pts.  FOC from codex only.


I appreciate the help,  so much to consider when making a list. Still learning...

I have:

3 raiders
2 venoms
succubus
archon
heamonculus
talos
cronos
6 reavers
ravager
about 35ish kabalites.

I have a few weeks to prep though.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 02:15

That's a really good base of models to work with, so don't fret about the Grotesques if you're not willing to make some yet. [Just fyi though, as long as they were the extra masks you have from your pain engine kits, have bulging muscles, a big visible spine and are mounted on a 40mm base, you're sweet. People aren't going to demand you sell your kidneys just to afford the monopose GW ones.]

With what you have in mind though, and without asking you to buy tonnes of new product:

You could take a mix of 1 Kabalite Gunboat and 2 units of Kabalites in Venoms. This uses 20 of your Kabalites, your venoms and a Raider.

Another Raider can be used for delivering your Warlord. (I also suggest getting a combat unit such as Incubi, Grots or Sslyth/Lhameans (Cheap Succubus with Glaive) or a support unit such as Medusae/Sslyth (Webway Portal Archon or Succubus) to help him/her  if you have time/money to accomplish this).

Converting Medusae, Sslyth, Incubi and Lhamaens is not actually that difficult because they all wear Kabalite Armour. Minor head conversions or kitbashing is usually enough for most, and for Sslyth, it's merely a case of finding or sculpting a tail. Since you already have so many Kabalites, I'd recommend using some of them (you won't usually use 35 in a competitive list) to represent some of these.

The 3rd Raider can be used as a Ravager (convert it by putting 2 Kabalites with Dark Lances onto the gangplanks with magnets pirat )

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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 02:57

I was saving the heads from my cronos/talos kit for exactly that.  

Was thinking something like stormfiends with the talos heads.  Still a bit expensive (worried ill mess up lol)

Converting one of my raiders into another ravager sounds fun,  Make some home made gun sponsors.  Kind of wish I bought the ravager kits and converted them for raider use =/

Yeah I am not sure what to do.

I like the warriors in the raiders, but it does seem like a bit too much. I guess some grots or something could be good. would 3 in a raider with a succubus work?

Run the other two raiders with troops and then my blaster born and then a venom with troops?

Ill have to try the points out when I get home. I guess I could work up the courage to try 3 grots.
Part of the trouble is I have a 1500 list I am trying to subtract this from, but its open to change. definitly want grots at some point its just rough having not done many conversions and when I search stuff online everything looks so good and effortless that i dont know where to begin.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 04:36

I know it's daunting trying to make unique Grotesques; I'm in the process of doing some myself. The beauty is that you don't need to use a standard template as much as most conversions. I know that Stormfiends are a splendid option to base them on, but you have lots of options. Just a few: Ogryns, Vargheists, Warspears (Hordes model) etc

You don't have to mirror them to "regular" Grotesques, which are effectively just mono-posed, large Eldar with over proportioned limbs and exposed spines. Each Haemonculus is very unique in how they craft their flesh projects. Mine are going to have two highly muscular infantry torsos sewn onto one on top of each other, supported by a muscular pair of legs.

If you're converting a fleshy, muscular, monstrosity (read: Chaos Spawn, Grotesques, Daemon Prince, big 'Nids) you have far more diversity at your finger tips than you would with standard uniform armour types (read: Space Marines power armour, Tau battlesuits, Eldar aspects)

As for the list idea you present, yeah I think it's definitely a step in the right direction.

3 Grotesques and a Succubus make a pretty strong counter attacking unit for your ranged army against short ranged or close combat enemies, or can equally pose a huge offensive problem for things like Grav spam and hordes (Run 3 Grotesques into a big platoon of Guardsman and laugh).

They're not too expensive either; between 3 of them and your Succubus you've only used up 200 - 240pts or so, excluding the Raider, so there's plenty of space for your 'meat and potato' units like Kabalites, Venoms, Trueborn, Ravagers etc.

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PriorofDeath
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 04:44

@WhysoSully wrote:
I was saving the heads from my cronos/talos kit for exactly that.  

Was thinking something like stormfiends with the talos heads.  Still a bit expensive (worried ill mess up lol)


Just so you know the skaven stormfiend models are a bit to big to make good grotesque models (https://i.imgur.com/x8p1YhR.jpg). They dwarf a 40mm base, I made that mistake and will have a full CTC once I get my next box to make some grotesques from blighted ogryn warspears.


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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 06:19

Oh wow I see what you mean about the bases, they look much smaller on the box haha.

I am not a fan of ogryns, the blighted ogryns look great but that guide that comes up when you search them with grotesques looks too good to be true lol. I couldnt seem to find where to purchase those.

The vargheists look good too.  A little... too... naked. Covering them with some metal stiched onto the skin might look decent.  I like that they have the exposed spine kind of of built in,  i havent worked with green stuff too much but that doesnt look too hard.

So this is what I am thinking...

Succubus(glaive), 3 grots, a raider (NS/Sail) 275

2x (10 kabalites, raider (NS,SR)) 330

5x kabalite warriors, Venom(cannon) 105

5x trueborn, 4x blaster, venom(cannon) 180

1x ravager (3x DL) 125


Now that catch...  Thats 1015 points.  I have to shave 15, I am thinking either 1 warrior from each raider or one of the splinter racks.


BTW, you guys are awesome. I really appreciate the advice.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 06:30

@priorofdeath: Good to know. Thanks for the heads up! How many masks come with a single Talos?

@WhysoSully: I second the 1k list that hydranixx posted. You already have all the models except 6 grots, and it really is a super-solid list at 1k.

Ideas for cheaper conversions:
$20/each: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Skaven-Rat-Ogres-and-Giant-Rats
$15/each: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Vampire-Counts-Crypt-Horrors
$9/each: https://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/legion-of-everblight/units/blighted-ogrun-warspears

All of these look like promising conversion opportunities. I think I might start converting some myself. Very Happy
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 06:34

@betraytheworld Would it be worth it without being able to use the formation? I checked the rules and its:

no flyers, no formation, no lords of war, no allies only 1 fortification up to 150 pts.  FOC from codex only.

Sorry for the confusion, I was just about to edit them into the original post.

Going to take a look at those suggestions for a bit, see if I can some how make 6 in my budget.

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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 06:41

Yes, it'd still be worth it. However, without the formation, I'd eventually swap out the Haemonculus for another Succubus w/archite glaive and drop 1 lance from the ravager to pay the difference. But since you don't have a 2nd succy, the Haemy will work for now.

It's still a really solid list, even without the bonus from the formation. Maybe drop the scissorhand and sump from the Haemonculus to pay for an aberration in both grot units. It's nice to have an alternate choice for duels.
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 07:32

I could make a female kabalite warrior with a spear, would that be close enough to a succubus?

Also I dont think I can take the sump since I am stuck to normal DE codex. Could try and save for a second succubus.

How would you expand this list to include a dark artisan formation/grotesquerie? (at 1500, I have a 1500 tournament a month after the 1000 point, Follow force composition rules per codex being the only rule so I can bring formations.)

I know the dark artisan isnt necessarily competitive because of the whole just avoiding it thing, but I figure a lucky reserves roll could be fun with a wwp or just wreaking havoc with haywire blasters while marching across the center, and to be honest I love the talos model its one of the reasons I picked DE.

I am part of an escalation league. We started at 500 points last month. Been having a lot of fun, playing my second 750 game soon and we have the 1000 pt round/tournament coming up. So far I have won 2 and only lost 1. Crazy thing, there is 32 people in the league.

I used to play back in 3rd edition. Really having fun getting back into it.

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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 08:08

Are formations allowed in the 1500 version? If not, discussing dark artisan is a moot point.
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 08:13

Here are the Rules

No formations is a restriction for the 1000 points but it is removed for the 1500.  Still not 100% with exact lingo which is why I included a picture, could I be interpreting that wrong? The whole thing is designed to slowly introduce people to the game and give you a chance to build an army as you go.  Its what finally motivated me to give it a shot.

Going to take everyone's advice and give converting some grots a try.

Also, is it possible to use urien as a normal heamonculus?  I want a second heamonculus but I would like the possibility of using urien in the future, he seems like our best named character.  Figure he will be fun to use at some point.

I am thinking something like this for the 1500

grotesquerie

3x grots, raider(NS, Sail) 180

3x grots, raider(NS, Sail) 180

Heamonculus, scissor, surp 90

------------------
450

Dark Artisan

Cronos, probe 125

Talos, Haywireblaster, flail, 135

Heamonculus, NMD, 105

------------------
365

HQ
Succubus, glaive 95

Troops

5x kabalites, blaster, venom, cannon 120

5x kabalites, blaster, venom, cannon 120

5x kabalites, raider 95 (wasnt sure how to spend the last 95 points)

Fast

3x reavers, caltrops 63

3x reavers, caltrops 63

Heavy

1x ravage 3x DL 125
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PriorofDeath
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 15:47

@betraytheworld, I think 6. I've used 6 total so far from 2 boxes of talos and still have 6 on the sprue. I may have misplaced a couple in a bits bag somewhere. 6 makes sense though.

@Whysosully, The Warspears models are not a GW product. I'm getting mine here, the cheapest I could find. (http://www.thewarstore.com/product49911.html) If you play at a GW they may not take it well.

The conversion does seem to need a bit of green stuff work, which I've only just started getting into but the proper tools (wax carvers, clay molders) only ran me ~20 bucks on  Amazon. I think you can do it. I've found to work small go large and not yry to sculpt the whole shebang in one go.

Your 1500 list is looking alright. The grotesque vs abberition debate can be found in the tactics corner, you could look into those with scissorhands or agonizers.

Your DA is not how I would kit it up. It looks like your foot slogging so you'll probably want to run with it to get into charge range. I would drop the HWB. I like my Heamy with scissorhands and a vexor mask, but that is very dependant on my meta (not super competitive).

Armor of misery would not be a bad idea depending on your meta with the negative LD. From the two formations you have going on

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 17:54

I'd put an ichor injector on that talos instead of the chain flails. Only 5 points more and you get fleshbane, and instant death on 6's added to your AP2 attacks from the smash rule. Really useful for a talos to be wounding a wraithknight on 2s with a chance of AP2 instant death(which converts to d3 wounds against a wraithknight). Assuming the wraithknight doesn't shoot you with the D, which he will. Hope he misses. Very Happy

Against other high toughness or multi-wound models it is a significant force multiplier for the Talos' limited number of attacks.
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WhysoSully
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 17 2016, 22:57

So with the DA formation, would it work to wwp it?  Seems very risky keeping almost a third of my points in reserves.  I am not quite at the point I feel comfortable using allies (and when I do start messing with reserves I would prefer to dedicate the whole list to that purpose).

I do eventually want to try some harlequins or CWE with their reserve shenanigans but for now I am content with pure DE.  

So my original talos was kit'd with the intent to use it more like a zone push/denial for Vehicles.  I was going to try and sweep the field using the grots to hold my enemy up turn two while my DA formation marched accross zoning out their transports/melee guys from catching my OBSEC venoms.  Leaving my reavers free to focus on objective capture / denial.


My other idea was to take a WWP in place of the NMD (I could drop the 5 troops from the raider and run it as a fast attack choice and take both the NMD and the WWP)  With this though I would do what you said with the ichor injector and maybe even add a twin linked Heat lance in case I have to pop a transport when I come in.


This is of course just with my understanding from reading the rules (which could be incorrect).  Advice is, of course, always appreciated!

With the blight spear I would be worried about not being able to use them. While I dont play in a GW I woulnt want to restrict my lists should I decide too. (I live in a pretty populated area and plan to eventually start doing tournaments)
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 18 2016, 00:36

I'm not a fan of using a WWP with ANY melee-focused units. It basically guarantees that you can't charge with them until turn 3. Even your super slow DA formation could POTENTIALLY charge in the first turn if your opponent goes first and comes at you, or puts scouts/infiltrators close enough.

Even without opponent fail, your DA formation will likely be able to charge by round 3 just by moving and running up the board. No point in paying 35 extra points to charge when you would have charged anyhow. And in the meantime, they're helping by providing target saturation and area denial.
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 18 2016, 01:55

I got to agree, I used to run mine with a wwp, ichor injector and heat Lance, drop in and take a round of shooting. Problem was ID get kited a whole lot and the only thing I could hurt would but chump units meant to keep me in the open. I have since been using the points of a wwp to use elsewhere. That's over half the points to another 3 man squad of reavers with caltrops which I find far more useful.

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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 18 2016, 04:16

@priorofdeath Have you used the nightmare doll?

So I want to use the Blighted's but I am a bit worried about them not being tournament legal

My idea around this now is to use the DA to zone the enemy while rushing the grots into combat and then work the objectives with the troops and reavers.

I got some time before I would have to submit the 1500 list, going to try and get as many games as I can in with the 1,000 list you guys linked.

First step is these grots.

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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 18 2016, 12:30

I think I used it once or twice. I tend to let my talos chronos do most of the tanking but I'm not in a very competitive area and only am able to play with a handful of people. Get in some practice games and see if it's worth it to you.

As for the grots, shoot your tourney official an email/fb/txt and see their opinion. If it's not a GW your playing at, and you get them painted and fixed up with talos bits I'd wager you'd be alright. It is a gray zone though from all I understand.

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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt tournament   1000 pt tournament I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 18 2016, 15:21

All the large GTs allow you to use conversions of the appropriate size and base as long as it's WYSIWYG and looks like what it's supposed to be. If your local tournament organizer isn't allowing awesome conversions like EoE's, tell him a guy online said he's a grumpy old man who needs to get with the times. Very Happy

Tournaments quit requiring "GW parts only" the moment GW withdrew from the tournament scene without so much as a post-it note letting us know they were stopping supporting it. No thanks to all the people who made it successful or anything. There is literally no reason ever, under any circumstances to demand that players use GW-only plastics, especially when GW gives us a mono-pose breakdancing monster that's supposed to be fielded in units of up to 10.
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