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 Urien and his big fat friends

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Da Black Gobbo
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PostSubject: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 18:38

hey guys been thinking about Urien, impressive toys and rules. With a small unit of grotrsques. 3 with aberration with scissor hand and liquifier gun in a raider and ofc with Urien's upgrade. killing this unit in CC may prove quite hard between, clone field T5 feel no pain, wound alocation an Urien geting back a wound each turn. Add str7 on the charge against vehicles they might do something. what do you think?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 19:26

It's not bad - the big donk to it is when comparing what else you could get for the same point cost. I actually like using Grots, and think they have uses - but I don't think Urien is really worth it compared to regular Haems.

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Cailos
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 19:33

@Thor665 wrote:
It's not bad - the big donk to it is when comparing what else you could get for the same point cost. I actually like using Grots, and think they have uses - but I don't think Urien is really worth it compared to regular Haems.
He can up their Str but for a cost.
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 19:39

The first thing you need to think about is how badly do you want to run him cuz in a little short while you will be told he is too expensive for what he does and the idea is not "optimal" for tournament play.

For me, I have used this unit about 5 times in just plain friendly games with a haemy or sometimes with an Archon added to the squad. I do believe through my experience that there needs to be this added element to the group as the unit is lacking power weapons. The haemy keeps the coven idea true and adds another liquifier while the Archon just gives you some raw CC killingness.

Either way your expressed expectations are correct - wound allocation shenanigans are fantastic as is the average toughness. I will also add that this unit does what you would expect when charging armor - they destroy it nearly every time (and thus have been more reliable at AT than any other unit). It is a trick to get them close and sometimes charging armor isn't the most efficient thing to do but the unit can do both really well.

So yah, I add an Archon or Haemy to the squad and put them in a raider with enhanced ether sails and just "flat-out +sail" them straight at the enemy. The explosion for the raider crashing doesn't bother them and it gives them a 4+ cover save while having FnP and Fearless. Next turn just charge whatever is closest as the opponent will usually not assault this unit and be rather fixated on shooting it to death.

The idea works - just not terribly efficient in the cost though.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 20:53

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:
The first thing you need to think about is how badly do you want to run him cuz in a little short while you will be told he is too expensive for what he does and the idea is not "optimal" for tournament play.
I sorta already did Wink

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:
The idea works - just not terribly efficient in the cost though.
Then you did too Very Happy

The basic hangup I have is this - with Urien I can pay extra and get Grots with Str 7 on the charge.
With a regular Haem I can pay well over a hundred points less and get Str 6 on the charge.

Str 6 on the charge works vs. rear armor/walker armor of AV 10-11 just fine for smashing vehicles, and is workable if for some insane reason you want to assault Dreads that aren't Ironclad.

Str 7 on the charge is not really any better versus rear armor. Is *slightly* better versus Dreads (and can opt to assault Ironclads...though frankly I think all Grot units should avoid Dreads like the plague, frankly) and is absolutely no better in helping versus things like Monoliths or Landraiders than regular Str 6 Grots.

So, I'm paying over 100 points to be slightly better versus something I probably don't want to assault anyway?
I think the regular Haem serves far better than Urien in a Grot unit, and that's pretty much the reason why.


Last edited by Thor665 on Thu Sep 29 2011, 20:55; edited 1 time in total
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 20:54

I actually like Urien, While he isnt competitive, his free wound a turn is great, and those super wracks hurt when they run into tanks. Overall I love them, just too bad he is so expensive...

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Da Black Gobbo
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30 2011, 00:37

Well i don't think Urien is that expensive, is T5 first of all gives +1d3 pain tokens to coven units and has a neat CC weapon and a super duper clone field! this squad can nulify wounds from a lot of guys, you could throw them against CC beasts and expect them to come alive (well not mephiston but you get the idea) let's make some soft mathammer against 30 orks.

If i get to charge: Liquifier will kill let's say 4, then Urien strikes at str4 (due to furious charge)so his 5 attacks will re-roll on 3+ to wound, so 3 orks are wounded and most likely dead. Then the Grotesques get to do 19 attacks, 10 from the grots will make 4-5 orks to die, the Aberration will kill another 3 so well have about 10 deaths on combat and 14 orks dead.
Urien will negate probably 2 attacks, 15 Boyz (sluggaz) 43 attacks, 21 hits, 5 wounds (needing 6) so a total 3 or 2, plus another one from the PK nob, that's 3 wounds most likely one for urien and 2 for grotesques.They loose by 8 so 7-6 more orks die. Well now the 30 boyz horde is down to barely 10 wich will be erased next turn. That's some power there, they absorb damage like nobody's bussines and are a very small unit easy to hide and can pass unoticed till they act.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30 2011, 04:15

Yes, that is all true.

Here's the question: is *Urien* the one making that happen?

Haem - Liquifier, Scissorhands (he costs 110 points less than Urien)
His extra Liquifier shot equates to an extra, let's say, 4 Orks (math wise this is way better than Urien's clonefield effect though he's more open to the threat of Klaw if you based the Klaw)
5 Attacks
2.5 hit
Wound on a 3+ with re-roll - so 2.22 wounded Orks

Urien
5 Attacks
3.33 hit
Wound on a 3+ with re-roll - so 2.96 wounded Orks

+110 points?
I can take a 30 point upgrade (Ancient) and actually duplicate Urien's WS, making the Ancient just as good at killing Orks (better with Liquifier) though I don't really think it's worth it for 30 points to get +0.7 dead Orks)

With 110 saved points I can basically get two more Haems with Liquifiers - which is pretty close to duplicating Urien's +Pain Token effect - except I can choose any units to get those tokens so Wyches or Incubi could get them...plus I get Liquifiers too.

As I said, don't get me wrong, I *do* think the unit works. I just don't think the unit needs to cost as much as including Urien would cost.

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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30 2011, 07:26

Urien just provides some more survivability, as he can take one wound per round, and kinda ignore it, and he has a clonefield.


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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30 2011, 08:04

I'll agree he adds some minor level of increased survivability - is it worth 110 points of survivability is the question when, functionally, a basic Haem will probably kill more things?

I have decided the answer is 'no' you can certainly come up with your own answer, I'm just providing the evidence I used to reach that conclusion. It's expensive enough doing Grots in a list, I don't feel like the 100 point bump is worth it for what I'm getting, and in fact I think it's pretty arguable that the basic Haem is *better* and if you can make that claim and save 100 points? No brainer for me.

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Da Black Gobbo
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30 2011, 13:16

Well i have to agree with you mr Thor, and claim i'll use Urien just for the kicks and the awesome model Very Happy, well played sir.

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30 2011, 14:58

@Da Black Gobbo wrote:
Well i have to agree with you mr Thor, and claim i'll use Urien just for the kicks and the awesome model Very Happy, well played sir.

As I thought, another themed player gives his oblous to charon.

I thought I would be remiss in not at least mentioning that Urien is "costly" and thus I had a responsibility to at least say it but I did not want to scare him out from using him - the forum is become quite homogeneous.

It is now just a matter of time before we are all bowing to the dice gods playing msu trueborn venom spam because it is what the dice are telling us. I here them speaking to me, it is only a matter of time before I answer them...
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30 2011, 15:33

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:
@Da Black Gobbo wrote:
Well i have to agree with you mr Thor, and claim i'll use Urien just for the kicks and the awesome model Very Happy, well played sir.

As I thought, another themed player gives his oblous to charon.

I thought I would be remiss in not at least mentioning that Urien is "costly" and thus I had a responsibility to at least say it but I did not want to scare him out from using him - the forum is become quite homogeneous.
Sad
I will note two things.
1. He's actually still decided to play Urien.
2. I don't think many other forums would have agreed with him that there is even tactical viability and options with Grots.

There are lots of things in this codex I can play - however, if I'm choosing to play something that is inherent;y a weak choice I think it is healthy for me to at least understand that I'm playing a weaker choice so I can make the decision for myself where I wish to fall on the scale of competitive/fluff fun. Just as much as I don't think players who prefer to win have a right to demand you make your list more competitive, I don't think players who desire a fun list should be able to demand we consider all options equally playable in a competitive sense. All I want is for more people to understand their choices and what those choices really mean as far as tactical options and compared functionality - after that, I'm comfortable with them playing whatever they wish, but I really like seeing the decisions made be informed on their side.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30 2011, 15:38

while MSU is fun, it never beats fielding those cheesy fluff list like Urien and 7 Super grots running around pwning faces Razz

I look at it as Urien is there for fun. Sometimes when Im not practicing for a tournament its just fun to run around with him, or Darazhar, or anything that isnt "optimal" (although I still cant get myself to field the decapitator...) Its just fun sometimes, and sometimes Urien gets his points back in spades:P He isnt the worse character in the dex, and that Strength boost is big for grots...

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30 2011, 16:20

I think that it's healthy to remind yourself once in a while that we are pushing little plastic soldiers that we paint across tables and rolling dice by playing a unit that is fun as hell. Very Happy I love playing this unit for the hell of it from time to time. I have a buddy that runs Ogryns in his IG army for the same reason: they're fun, they smash stuff, and when it's all said and done your opponents usually have fun playing against you trying to kill the big lugs.

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Cailos
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30 2011, 16:24

I want to run a 4 Grot unit with Archon and Haem in a Raider. I think that would be a fun and killy unit and it would be a shock and awe unit after it charges.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30 2011, 16:29

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
I have a buddy that runs Ogryns in his IG army for the same reason: they're fun, they smash stuff, and when it's all said and done your opponents usually have fun playing against you trying to kill the big lugs.
Like Grots, I actually think there are solid applicable plays with Ogryns.
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30 2011, 20:22

@Cailos wrote:
I want to run a 4 Grot unit with Archon and Haem in a Raider. I think that would be a fun and killy unit and it would be a shock and awe unit after it charges.

That was exactly my first game ever with the codex and have been using variations of it off and on now ever since. You do have to be "smart" with them but for the most part your opponent will underestimate them at first and will generally shoot at them any chance they get.

Funny story about that first game, I rushed a Vulkan squad that had drop podded in my deployment zone with the Archon, haemy and 4 Grots. The Archon put 3 wounds on Vulkan but he made all his saves, the haemy did so so and the Grots only managed to kill a marine or two. When Vulkan attacked, he went after the Grotesques as did the marines in ignoring the Archon and managed to overwhelm the combat resolution - I lost the battle, failed morale and then promptly ran off the table because the battle took place like 6" from my board edge.

Anyway, that didn't discourage me from using the unit but I got the picture that they are not point and click and certainly not "optimal" - they are really a fun unit to enjoy every once in a while. Hence, try it out, have fun, discover on your own what you like or dislike and save the boring tournament builds for, tournaments. Let's not dismiss the reason why we are drawn to the army so quickly, try everything out at least once.
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PostSubject: Re: Urien and his big fat friends   Urien and his big fat friends I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 30 2011, 20:24

@Thor665 wrote:
@Evil Space Elves wrote:
I have a buddy that runs Ogryns in his IG army for the same reason: they're fun, they smash stuff, and when it's all said and done your opponents usually have fun playing against you trying to kill the big lugs.
Like Grots, I actually think there are solid applicable plays with Ogryns.

And we all really like trying to kill the big scary lugs too!
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