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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 14:59

Under the rules for tank shock and ramming... pg 68 & 69 BRB

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 15:32

Just to clarify now i have the BRB in front of me...

Pg 69 - ramming is a special type of tank shock and is executed in the same way(2nd column, 1st line)

Page 68 - Move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared (2nd column, 2nd & 3rd line)

So you declare the rame (and move at max speed as per the ram rules) then turn on the spot in the direction of the ram, then move it straight forward until it contacts an enemy unit...thus it is impossible to 'jump' enemy units

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 15:42

@Massaen wrote:
Just to clarify now i have the BRB in front of me...

Pg 69 - ramming is a special type of tank shock and is executed in the same way(2nd column, 1st line)

Page 68 - Move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared (2nd column, 2nd & 3rd line)

So you declare the rame (and move at max speed as per the ram rules) then turn on the spot in the direction of the ram, then move it straight forward until it contacts an enemy unit...thus it is impossible to 'jump' enemy units
Can you read the rules for Skimmers just to make sure you didn't miss something in those rules about "jumping" enemy units.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 15:50

oh you can move over enemy units for sure - but ramming (which is tank shock) is very clear - pivot and move in a straight line until you contact an enemy...

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 15:55

@Massaen wrote:
oh you can move over enemy units for sure - but ramming (which is tank shock) is very clear - pivot and move in a straight line until you contact an enemy...
Even for skimmers ok I will have to tell and show my local gaming group. For some reason we thought we could just fly over stuff we didn't want to hit.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 16:08

Thats the way i read it... I will consult a couple of other rules guru's i know...

That said, the tourney scene locally has always played it like that... who knows!

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 08 2011, 12:30

The model is on a tall base, it may have line of sight over a small vehicle to one behind it, so it would have to curve to hit vehicle in front. Then allowing flyover attack on front one and ram on other, may not come up much since front vehicle would have to be low to ground and rear one high. Like an ork buggy a foot in front of battle wagon maybe. What about a land speeder in front of rhino, land speeder dodges ram, so tantalus passes over to hit rhino further on, land speeder takes blade hits since it was passed over?
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 09 2011, 07:55

I dunno. I'd imagine that you can move over for a tank shock. The book doesnt say you HAVE to come into contact with the first tank in front of you. It just says when you DO come into contact.

If you're a skimmer, and you move over a unit, you dont come into contact with them. (rules say you cannot move into base contact, except for assaults/ramming.

I was looking over the rules. Theres nothing in the ramming section that says you have to make contact with the first unit/tank you move over. And I didnt say anything limiting the use of your skimmer rule during tankshock/ramming.

I'm Deathadder, btw. Nice to meet you all
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 09 2011, 13:42

The rules do infact say this - ramming is a form of tank shock and tank shock says move in a straight line until you contact an enemy...

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 09 2011, 19:04

Yes I got that. But it doesnt say the enemy you contact has to be the first enemy in front of you. I dont see anything limiting you using the skimmer rule to NOT contact something you dont want to
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 10 2011, 10:38

Welcome deathadder, to the dark city, please visit the next tourist information and have a look at all the tours we have to offer ;-)

Massaen - skimmers differ from regular vehicles as they can move over units and the tank shock rules are written for regular vehicles who use basic movement rules. so as a skimmer is a special kind of vehicle, it can use his special movement rules, when normal vehicles can only use their basic rules.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 11 2011, 11:31

@crazy irish - where in the world do you get that from? You are told how tank shock works and there is no exceptin to these rules that i have found...

40k is permissive remember!

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 11 2011, 13:39

Thats just the way the rule book is written. You have a unit class: Bikes and Jetbikes function just the same, with a few differences. Jump troops function like infantry, in most parts. They all have their uniques, that let's them do the things, that the "normal" unit class does, in quite a different way.

Jump troops can jump over enemy units. as can skimmers, as a matter of fact, that is one of the core differences to their basic unit class. I see your point, but you are demoting a skimmer to a regular vehicle.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 11 2011, 14:30

Nope - skimmers can move over enemy models - no arguments there. But tank shock (or ramming) is not moving - its got its own rules that over ride parts of the movement rules.

Nothing in tank shock and ram lets you move over enemies - it says the first unit in the line very clearly

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 11 2011, 16:19

Yes Warhammer rules are permissive. But when permission is given (through the movement rules for skimmers) then it has to be specifically denied for it to change. Ramming is movement, until it hits a vehicle. Its in the movement phase, you move your model around.

If we go by your rules, you cannot go flat out during a tank shock/ram, as that is done with moving. Also, you can cheat the rules by 'tank shocking' into nothing, then firing heavy weapons from your crew (as they wont count as moving either)
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 11 2011, 16:28

@deathadder wrote:
Yes Warhammer rules are permissive. But when permission is given (through the movement rules for skimmers) then it has to be specifically denied for it to change. Ramming is movement, until it hits a vehicle. Its in the movement phase, you move your model around.

If we go by your rules, you cannot go flat out during a tank shock/ram, as that is done with moving. Also, you can cheat the rules by 'tank shocking' into nothing, then firing heavy weapons from your crew (as they wont count as moving either)
Good points
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 12 2011, 01:09

Not really - you must declare the distance for a tank shock (or move your max speed for a ram) - again both of these are spelled out in the tank shock/ram rules.

There is nothing that gives an exception to let you fly skimmers over enemy models - it spells out you pivot and move untl you contact the FIRST enemy model.

If you jump over one to get at another then thats not the first anymore...

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 12 2011, 02:33

Well then Massaen. I'm going to be Tank shocking the crap out of people, and then firing my dark Lance from the onboard warriors, because apparently Tank shock/ramming isnt movement.
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 12 2011, 07:08

I know rules are abstract but rather than clinging doggedly to one RAW interpretation does it not make sense to you that 1. The movement part of the shock IS moving, 2. when skimmers move they can choose t ignore stuff intervening.

Why would a skimmer that wishes to ram a certain tank suddenly forget it can fly over things in the way?

Your interpretation simpky makes no sense.

I'm guessing there is no faq ?

A raider with a shock prow aint cheap Until GW outright clarifies I cannot, I can....

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 12 2011, 09:02

It doesn't say contact first enemy model, it says if contacts vehicle. So if someone tried ramming with a non-skimmer through a gap to narrow between vehicles he may bend up ramming friendlies.. And if a skimmer can ignore vehicles it passes over, they are never contacted.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 12 2011, 11:59

@deathadder wrote:
Well then Massaen. I'm going to be Tank shocking the crap out of people, and then firing my dark Lance from the onboard warriors, because apparently Tank shock/ramming isnt movement.

Now thats just being obtuse. Of course its movement - just the movement is defined differently as i have said more then once (like only being able to pivot once to line up the target)

@Sorrowshard - yep its is movement as i have said but its a defined set of rules within movement. Skimmer can indeed jump things - again i agree... but tank shock has its own set of rules - none of which are in anyway vague. While it may make no sense - it could just be for game balance... alot of 40k makes no sense if you look at it close enough.

@abjectus - no it says unit very clearly in tank shock... and ramming is a form of tank shock. So all the tank shock rules apply as well.

I have quoted all the relevant rules and given pages etc... and all i have had back is responses that basically say 'I don't like it that way therefore i will play it another way". If you can point me to other rules i have missed I am all ears (should that be eyes?) but without an FAQ, RAW reading is all we have... and as far as i can see what i am saying is RAW... if you want to play it your way thats fine. All i was trying to do is point out was that the rules do not support the fly over and then ram scenario that others seemed to think was so clear cut...

Ironically its a moot point given that this model is only going to show up in apoc games or friendlies in 99% of cases and in those cases, discuss with your opponent!

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Last edited by Massaen on Wed Oct 12 2011, 14:40; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : realised i had over reacted abit)
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Cailos
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 12 2011, 14:50

Like you said Ramming and Tank Shocking has its own set of rules but so do skimmers.

Which allow it to moving over units, terrian, or vehicles when it makes a movement.
Ramming and Tank Shocking is a movement.

So a tank shocking or ramming skimmer can moving over units, terrian, or vehicles before it gets to its target.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 12 2011, 14:58

I still find this a huge leap as it specifically mentions the first unit it contacts...

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 12 2011, 14:59

@Massaen wrote:
I still find this a huge leap as it specifically mentions the first unit it contacts...
It wouldn't contact them if it flys over them.
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 12 2011, 15:26

@Massaen - how do you define "contact"? For instance, if I'm moving a skimmer normally - do I contact an enemy model by flying over it?

When I'm tank shocking what obligates me to move my skimmer without using the skimmer movement rules?

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