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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 25 2011, 21:45

As many people are now aware of the Tantalus's rules I think a little discussion about its use could be good for those interested in it. This thread will also serve as a place to discuss the rules in general.

Let's go for the obvious first. It's big, very big and doesn't have structure points, it'll be in LOS a lot of the time and rarely hull down, lucky it has a flickerfield. Due to the length though I'm sure some people will have fun abusing the pivot rule. 12 12 10 is nice but being open topped it won't be as survivable as people may expect. Enhanced aethersails will make it a bit nippy too.

Firepower. 2 Heavy 6 dissies and aerial assault means you've got the fire power of 1 1/3 dissie Ravagers. Good thing about the model is they are prow mounted so should always have LOS to their target. No anti tank shooting but should shred a Terminator squad in seconds.

Oooh I should mention it's a tank too so tank shocking ahoy.

Transport. 16 capacity, that's a full wych squad plus character if you're going assault or a combination of anything else. Unfortunately splinter racks are not available though most other upgrades are.

Then of course there's force organisation, no Ravager or Razorwing for you.

The Tantalus has of course a small speciality, moving flat out it causes D6 S7 AP2 hits on models with a toughness but that means you're not shooting and the embarked troops aren't doing anything. If this happens against a vehicle it's one S7 2D6 pen which should hurt most tanks but again means you're wasting other capabilities.

I've raised a few general talking points but I'll leave it to the likes of Thor to dissect the new addition to our arsenal. To me it's not competitive but for 215 in a friendly, could be worth a go.


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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 25 2011, 22:08

There seemed to be confusion on the other thread regarding the fly-over attack on vehicles. As I understand it here it is not a ramming attack, but like slave snares attack that can damage vehicles. Yes?

While we were all hoping for a SH with structure points I think this vehicle is interesting at least while looking beautiful as hell.

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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 25 2011, 22:26

Yes, if it moves flat out and passes over a vehicle it causes one automatic S7 2D6 pen on the side the Tantalus moved from. It is a tank and can take a shock prow so there is nothing stopping you flying over one tank and then ramming another.

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 25 2011, 22:52

Hrm... I often play Apocalypse with my DE, and was hoping for, well, more from the Tantalus; IE a baneblade-equivalent. At the very least, some structure points would have been nice. Or even some Apocalypse-grade upgrades, like the Tantalus could have a WWP generator, or a snazzy ship-sized Shadowfield...

So for 215 points we get a sail-barge that probably every enemy heavy weapon on the table can draw LOS to... Beyond the "Oooo, shineh!" potential, WHY else would we take one of these instead of our much-beloved Ravagers?
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 25 2011, 22:54

I'll start from basics:

Treat it as bastard-brother of LRC. Worse armour, no AT, better AI.

IMHO pick it as HS, alongside with either Jets (I guess Razorwing due to cost) or Ravagers. There is no freaking way Court need that ride.

IMHO is no way to make that guy even remotely able to harm mech, nor reason. You load AT unit inside - AV 12 get shot by AutoCannons. HOWEVER if You make it AI monster, unwary opponent may skip it. Or shoot crazy ammount of bullets into it if he play Orks (Lootas...), IG (Hydras...) or Nids (Hive guards...), keeping rest of Your stuff safe.

Also, it's big BUT You should be able to shoot through it... if You are lucky, You'll get cover but enemy won't (True LoS magic).

I would load inside bunch of Warriors (Ok, they may get Blaster but for sure pick SC) and Splinter Racks, with 16 cap it actually MAY be useful.

Alternatively You may pick 10 Trueborn with maxed Carabines and SC, Duke and take huge dump on head of Your enemy dump whole thing from orbit.
Land, unload payload, obliterate 2 squads if You are lucky, survive return fire. It would be helluva expensive but granted that Your enemy WILL like to kill it.

There is also nasty trick if it can take Retro-jets - load Grotesques inside with IC. Again, I would DS it. You want open tanks, then bring Your AI on table.

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 00:25

Is it just me, or is there not yet a model on FW? It's certainly not under DE or New Stuff.


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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 00:59

You could buy it at GD if I'm correct...

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 01:33

People are asking some interesting questions, first thing is first;

Q: Is it competitive?
A: No.

The rest of the conversation can move forward functionally from there.

It's big issue is, much like the Razorwing, it's an anti infantry option in a Heavy Slot where our army seems to want anti-tank to come from it. So, you're left with two options;

1. Take a Court to get it as a dedicated transport...and be stuck with a Court...and...bleh.
2. (and Local Ork twigged slightly to this idea) Work it into the Sliscus/Razorwing build instead of one of the Razorwings.

#2 seems to be the "most competitive" idea that immediately springs to mind (10+ Wyches + Haem + Archon/Succubus and exploiting the rotate trick seems the other...but I have a hard time justifying using the rotate trick in a game where you're also fielding FW units...YMMV)

Dropping down with Duke S. and a huge pile of Warriors and letting the Tantalus play a bigger and meaner Venom (seriously - 12 Dissie shots? Ouch!) while the Duke and his squad also dakka into something as needed.

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 02:51

Something else that I wanted to clarify:this thing isn't for Apocalypse games only, correct?(No structure points, takes up a heavy slot) FW stuff usually is more and the fun and interesting side than competitive. I haven't been to a tournament yet that allows FW stuff anyways, so this thing seems more like a "for fun" piece anyways.

And it looks so damned good...How are those not automatically enhanced aether sails anyways?

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 03:01

I've never seen a tourney allow FW either, but if people are asking about its competitiveness I'm comfortable answering.

It doesn't specifically use Apoc rules, so you can use it in a "normal" game, yes.

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 03:25

In my area some TO allow up to 1 per army, if it's not superheavy and You have original FW model with rules.


But indeed it's not quite competitive (with Duke and maxed DakkaBorn whole package should cost about 500-600 points, that's plain crazy).

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 05:14

I wouldn't want to maximize the DakkaBorn (nor would I use Trueborn - I'd use regular Warriors, Trueborn should stick to providing Blasters)

You're really just paying around 200 for the Tantalus and using it instead of a Razorwing, and at a point savings from the Raider The Duke would have been in - making it reasonably functional at 2000 (though tight) and viable at 2500 without a big shift to the core list.

You lose out on the pie plates of the Razor - but gain a sickening 12 Dissie shots, allowing the Tantalus to carve up certain units with more focused aplomb than a Razorwing could.

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 09:13

@Thor665 wrote:

You lose out on the pie plates of the Razor - but gain a sickening 12 Dissie shots, allowing the Tantalus to carve up certain units with more focused aplomb than a Razorwing could.

That is the real difference. the razor is good against many weak infantry, the tantalus is good against heavy infantry. And the razor can carry up to 16 Models. Like 15 Hagashin, with HG do chock up a tank line XD

What i really like about it, is that it is a unite to use in normal games. it may not be competitive, but then it is not weak. it's just not over the top. Well 12 Disse shots XD but still not OP.

I think it could do well, if you put it in the right list. a list build around it, something it, the model, deserves.
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 09:17

It is something I would probably only take to an Apocalypse battle, or as a counts-as Razorwing. Beautiful model, though, which is what counts for Forge World as far as I'm concerned.

Though I like the idea of running it over an IG parking lot, with aethersails how many Chimeras do you think you could burst? I'm betting quite a few. Throw in some Wyches to carve through the contents of the chimera afterwards.
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 10:20

7 grotesques with archon with phantasm grenade and webway, could deploy webway pretty far forward and still be effective melee unit. Even has room for haemie for 2nd staring pain token.
I also am looking forward to 15 wych w/ succubus unit multi-charging. I like the way it gives unique options, rather then better/worse version of something else. The dedicated transport option gives a extra reason to take a court, and a max size court no less to use the space. May boost sales of court models. Laughing

If the flatout damage hits every unit it passes over, cluters of small units like IG weapon teams that are 2 close to each other could be in for some pain. since it will end up right at front line to deploy assualt troops, it may be able to hit 1/2 of army next turn. May cause enemy to scatter units to prevent, reducing there effect, then the tantualus could shoot instead.

I plan to order one as soon as there available. Then convert a second from 2 raiders, maybe with pair of heavy 2 darklance as diy variant. If have strange urge to use 2 courts in these and vect in dais in 2000pt list, not effective but nice fun theme of command element of much larger force. Need second archon and lots of incubi and trueborn.
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 10:51

Just to clear it up, you can only attack one unit or vehicle that you pass over while going flat out a turn. You could however end the turn ramming another tank.

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 11:02

That makes sense, it seemed like it would be a little to effective to assault a flank and next turn run over big chunk of a foot army/parking lot.
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 11:13

Well, that does limit its usefullness significantly. Still, taking it as a dedicated transport for a small court seems like a decent way of getting extra disintegrators without taking up a heavy support slot. And contrary to popular opinion the court actually isn't that bad.
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 11:14

@abjectus wrote:
That makes sense, it seemed like it would be a little to effective to assault a flank and next turn run over big chunk of a foot army/parking lot.
I wouldn't see a problem if it actually could do that Smile



Ok, I do.

Anyway if You need to move flat out to use this thing, raming afterwards may be little hard.

I also don't think I would risk enemy DoG with that thing. Not with "elite and rare" Space Marines with Meltaguns.

215+ (remember, if You move flat out unit inside will die if You get wrecked) vs. ~30.
AV 12 OT 5++ vs. Meltagun.
+2 to damage rolls, autohit, 5+ (od 2d6) to pen.

No. Unless it don't sount as TS.

Also... HOLY CRAP IT'S ELDARGAL! YAY!

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 15:04

I would love to use this with my two Razorwing Fighters. I may get it over Converting a Voidraven. I will plot that one out in my head.
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 16:55

agreed with Eldargal, the only way I would field one is as a DT for a min court, atleast the huge hull allows for some nice drive-by flamering by the medusae.

Its also nice that I can finally get some huge Grot squads around without having to rely on a WWP. I Find 4+ IC just really underwhelming... Maybe I can start fielding a Coven Airforce when I finally get one Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 22:43

Quote :
People are asking some interesting questions, first thing is first;

Q: Is it competitive?
A: No.

Damn...they need to make super venom with 4 SC or some other crazy thing or we`re dooomed...doom...doom doom doom.(zim Twisted Evil )

Sending 15 wyches and succub at once? hell yeah....
12 dissies?? hura....come destroyers, come marines.
200+pts......ok that hurts
Slicing attacks?? I love reavers so I like it.

Maybe not one of "omg must have" but fairly interesting and looks awesome.

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 27 2011, 03:48

Question re: the transport capacity, please - must the passengers all belong to one unit? It has two hulls, far apart, so I could potentially see separate units bailing out over both sides.


@Evil Space Elves wrote:
Something else that I wanted to clarify:this thing isn't for Apocalypse games only, correct?(No structure points, takes up a heavy slot) FW stuff usually is more and the fun and interesting side than competitive. I haven't been to a tournament yet that allows FW stuff anyways, so this thing seems more like a "for fun" piece anyways.

Come to my club's annual tournie in April, here in Vancouver. No superheavies, but we've had Eldar Hornets and such before.
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 27 2011, 04:02

@Gobsmakked wrote:
Question re: the transport capacity, please - must the passengers all belong to one unit? It has two hulls, far apart, so I could potentially see separate units bailing out over both sides.


@Evil Space Elves wrote:
Something else that I wanted to clarify:this thing isn't for Apocalypse games only, correct?(No structure points, takes up a heavy slot) FW stuff usually is more and the fun and interesting side than competitive. I haven't been to a tournament yet that allows FW stuff anyways, so this thing seems more like a "for fun" piece anyways.

Come to my club's annual tournie in April, here in Vancouver. No superheavies, but we've had Eldar Hornets and such before.

I'd love to, but I don't know if they allow Sharks fans up there Laughing Seriously though, I wish that I had the money to get up there to see family more often. It is truly one of the most beautiful cities in North America.
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus Tactica   Tantalus Tactica I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 27 2011, 04:14

@Gobsmakked - Vancouver is awesome - if I'd known you then I totally would have lugged up an army last time I went Wink Also; the only rules I know of that allow multiple units to embark on a single vehicle are Apoc rules - so my expectation is no - it will not allow multiple units.

@Green Acid - It's certainly fun, but (sadly) fun=/=competitive.

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