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 New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts

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The Immortal Dawn
Slave
The Immortal Dawn

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PostSubject: New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts   New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 11 2015, 23:05

Hello all,

This is my first post here, as I am usually the one to face the receiving end of the DE beating stick rather than being the one to use it. To be fair I am a casual 40k gamer who has not played many games this year outside of my imperial guard/sisters of battle vs dark angels. My Other friend who typically plays ultramarine and orks has invited me down to his for a gaming weekend and I have decided to surprise him with two things. One a new army of Dark Eldar, and a list that is reasonably competitive.

So for the last few months I have been getting into the feel of my new DE making lovely units without a serious core list, and not having play tested it I am getting nervous not to make the weekend not fun for both of us by being a complete washout. Therefore I am looking to you guys, the experienced DE player base for some advice if possible.

So I have made a list, which has been made using the units available to me at this time (some still need work) and my first assessment of the army books some time ago of what I wanted in my force. So please give me suggestions, within the boundaries of what you see here and whatever I can make in a two week time period. (Budget unlimited, with reason)

Target 2000pts

Heamonculus coven – 1110 pts

Formation - forgot name

2* Heamonculus – Scissor hand, Webway portal, liquefier gun (both same)

3* Grotesques – Leader with Scissor hand, 1 x liquefier gun

3* Grotesques – Leader with Scissor hand, 1 x liquefier gun

Formation - Scalpel squadron

5* Wracks – Leader with Scissor hand, 2 x liquefier guns, DT : Venom 2*splinter cannon

5* Wracks – Leader with Scissor hand, 2 x liquefier guns, DT : Venom 2*splinter cannon

2* Talos - Basic

-------------------------------

Real space raider allies - 885pts

1* Archon – Agoniser, Haywire Grenade, Shadowfield

9* Wyches – Leader with Agoniser, Haywire Grenade, DT : Raider 1* Dark Lance

5* Incubi – Leader, DT: Venom 2* Splinter cannon

2* Ravager – 3* Dark Lance

1 * Void Bomber – Payload TBC

Deployment

Talos, Ravager only,

Turn 1 – Wracks DS causing distraction, liquefier death and early VP if possible. Ravagers move from cover to start popping priority vehicles.

Turn 2 + Deep Striking Grotesques with Haemonculus each for liquiefier death and high T target in enemy deployment, Wyches with archon and Inccubi sit back for turn 3-4 race across table and combat support for wracks and groteques remaining. Void bomber distracts AA and attacks as AA or targets high priority vehicles. Talos objective sit or work up table as high T target distraction.

End game – Anything left alive claims objectives.

Please note two things,

1. I have never played this army in any edition and only played against it in 3rd so I have zero experience.

2. My opponent apart from using orks or ultras is pretty much unknown, but has a habit of designing army’s that are in your deployment in turn 2 (ork trukk charge, or Sternguard Drop pod) So to counter this to I am trying to wait out the charge then hit him with my reserves at his back fielders.

What you guys think, any big no nos ? Thanks in advance
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts   New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 12 2015, 01:33

Greetings and welcome to dark eldar. First I think you meant 'detachment' in which case its the covenite coterie detachment (2 hq 2 elite as compulsory). If not its the grotesquerie formation. I'd suggest making it the latter but you will then need to fit both taloi into 1 HS from the RSR detachment. Much better though and with 1 less commitment to haemies.

On those units in particular I think you'll find the WWP to be sub optimal due to late arrival by a combat unit. Some people I've seen do use grots with WWP but then they aim for max sized units that can't normally fit in raiders. I still wouldn't recommend it. Instead I would recommend putting each squad in a raider if you have the time to pick up the models. DE are typically a mechanized force where transports 'unlock' troops.. rather the reverse and we have the best assault transports in the game, shame to not take advantage.  

If your looking to avoid an alpha strike by deep strike then the taloi and grots can do this wonderfully just by deploying them in cover and in the grots case even going to ground. You have potentially T6 or 4+ FNP models with 4+ to 2+ cover that become fearless the next turn and stand back up.. hard to dig out to say the least. Lose the liquifiers though. They need to be taken en masse to get the effect you want.. at which point they are prohibitively expensive. Spend those points on agonizers and/or rides. Same for the second haemies pts.

The scalpel squadron seems to be meant as an enabler of reserve-all strategies, which it does. However I think you'll find better results doing what I mentioned above. Honestly the wrack models are amazing but in-game their performance is very poor as you can probably see by their lack of ranged presence and bad combat stats/durability. I would suggest using these as warrior counts-as since you don't have warriors in your force at the moment so there will be no conflict. Model them with splinter rifles if you like (hmmm note to self).

The RSR looks serviceable although it would fit inside a CAD and give you access to the RE in rolls on strategic not to mention objective secured. Something to consider..
Oh wait and you need to go full CAD here btw because dark eldar and coven are the same FACTION, unlike say ultras and wolves/BA/GK/DA who are seperate factions. Meaning you need a second troops choice here.

On the units in this detachment I would try the wyches but bear in mind they are incredibly fragile outside of combat. Double grots, incubi and taloi might all help to draw fire away from them but don't be surprised if they go down in the first explodes result. That said I know you have the models already and the setup looks reasonable.

Incubi are fine, I prefer raiders for delivery this edition.

My main suggestion here other than adding a troops choice (haemie pts could go here) would be to make the voidraven into a razorwing in fast attack. This would leave HS space for the taloi, save you some points and your plane will perform better especially considering your opponents. Again counts-as razorwing.  

If your dying to try the WWP the I'd suggest getting something a little more suited to the pinpoint accurate DS.. like say medusa or trueborn with blasters or even reavers with heat lances. Remember that the grots taken from coven are night and day in self sufficiency so they don't need babysat by an IC.

Thats it for now.
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The Immortal Dawn
Slave
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PostSubject: Re: New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts   New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 12 2015, 21:48

Cheers for the comments Brom, I think I've taken everything onboard (please take a look below).

First off apologies, I did meant the Grotesquerie formation indeed for the stat roll.

I've had time to tweek my list as you recommended.

Target 2000pts

Heamonculus coven

Formation - Grotesquerie

1* Heamonculus – Scissor hand, Sundriq's Sump (removed 1 Heamonculus, WWP and Liquefiers)
3* Grotesques – Leader with Scissor hand, 1 x liquefier gun, DT: Raider, 1* Dark Lance
3* Grotesques – Leader with Scissor hand, 1 x liquefier gun, DT: Raider, 1* Dark Lance

Formation - Scalpel squadron
5* Wracks – Leader with Scissor hand, 2 x liquefier guns, DT : Venom 2*splinter cannon
5* Wracks – Leader with Scissor hand, 2 x liquefier guns, DT : Venom 2*splinter cannon

2* Talos - Basic

-------------------------------

Real space raiders - As CAD

1* Archon – Agoniser, Haywire Grenade, Shadowfield, WWP
1* Court of Archon - 3*Medusa, 3*SSlyth

9* Wyches – Leader with Agoniser, Haywire Grenade, DT : Raider 1* Dark Lance
5* Warriors - Leader with Haywire Grenade, Blaster, DT: Venom 2* Splinter Cannon
5* Warriors - Leader with Haywire Grenade, Blaster, DT: Venom 2* Splinter Cannon

5* Incubi – Leader, DT: Venom 2* Splinter cannon
5* Mandrakes - No leader

2* Ravager – 3* Dark Lance
1* Talos - Chainflails

1* Razorwing Jetfighter - 2*Dark Lance, Splinter Cannon, 4*Scatterfield, Night Shields
1 * Void Bomber – Payload TBC

1. Grots are now in raiders with no WWP, ( No problems with this as I have two spare raiders ready to go, but I have no more after this at this time.)
2. Razorwing instead of Voidraven Bomber (I have both currently unmade so no probs)
3. Wracks to proxy as medusa, with addition of 3 Sslyth to get desired deployment for medusa templates (or should i go 6 medusa?).
4. Archon gains WWP, (for medusa bomb)
5. Real space raiders changed to CAD
6. 2 small squads of warriors on venoms with haywire blasters added
7. one talo removed, one moved to Real space raiders and given shred.
8. Mandrakes added (because I have the models and they are pretty cool) to be used primarily as a distraction unit.
9. Added the heamons Sump because it sounds like it could be situation useful.

Let me know what you think or if I have made any more mistakes.

Regards
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts   New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 13 2015, 15:02

Looks serviceable to me, from there you can tweak it.

On the court placing more than 3 templates won't happen easily unless your inside a raider. Also currently the unit is majority toughness 3.. adjusting the medusa/sslyth count to make the unit majority toughness 5 (with archon) would be my suggestions. Theses guys really could use a raider but I know your out so meh.

On the razorwing the only real benny to shatterfields is if your trying to cross over into anti LIGHT armour territory. I suppose its doable but I would just take necros personally and put those 20 pts elsewhere. On that note the warriors won't make much use of the champs with HWG. Theres argument for such an upgrade in say a unit of blasterborn delivered via WWP due to pinpoint delivery but here its not gonna come up often if ever.

The only other suggestions I can make is to consider agonizers on the abbys and night shields where ever possible. These inclusions really next level the army. Oh and lastly an anti tank weapon on the talos would be worth considering since DE tend to be all or nothing in that department.
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The Immortal Dawn
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PostSubject: Re: New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts   New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 13 2015, 22:33

Thanks again Brom, seems we are nailing it down a bit now. Some tweaks as suggested.

Target 2000pts

Heamonculus coven

Formation - Grotesquerie

1* Heamonculus – Scissor hand, Sundriq's Sump (no change)
3* Grotesques – Leader with Agoniser, DT: Raider, 1* Dark Lance
3* Grotesques – Leader with Agoniser, DT: Raider, 1* Dark Lance

-------------------------------

Real space raiders - As CAD

1* Archon – Agoniser, Haywire Grenade, Shadowfield, WWP, DT : Venom 2 * Splinter Cannon
1* Court of Archon - 3*Medusa

9* Wyches – Leader with Agoniser, Haywire Grenade, DT : Raider 1* Dark Lance, Night Shields
5* Warriors - Blaster, DT: Venom 2* Splinter Cannon
5* Warriors - Blaster, DT: Venom 2* Splinter Cannon

5* Incubi – Leader, DT: Venom 2* Splinter cannon
5* Mandrakes - No leader

2* Ravager – 3* Dark Lance, Nights Shields
1* Talos - Chainflails

1* Razorwing Jetfighter - 2*Dark Lance, Splinter Cannon, 4*Necro missiles, Night Shields

1. Added Agonisers to the Grots as suggested
2. Removed 2 Sslyth for Venom, I couldn't work enough with the points for majority T5 without going down to 1 medusa.
3. Took away warriors leaders and haywires
4. Down graded missiles on Razorwing
5. Upgrade points for only 3 night shields, my thinking is put 2 on the ravagers so if i can get them in cover, they dont have to jink and resort to snap fire. The last one went to the witches as they are more fragile than the Grots. The other option perhaps is to forget the NS on the ravagers and put them all on the raiders ?

I finished assembly on all these units now except the razorwing so looks like they will get the base coat and wash treatment for all units before the game, may even get chance to post some pictures (a first for me and painting armies 09.13.2015 Very Happy )

Thanks again, and let us know on the NS?
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts   New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 14 2015, 00:04

I personally never use NS. I did some mathhammer on them and they actually save the vehicle only once per several games. Our vehicles are usually hit by so much firepower that they die with or without them, jinking or not. In my book absolutely not worth it. But there are people who do take them. I just trust the math. :-)
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts   New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 14 2015, 02:55

Looks like a nice rounded list, not min/max but overall capable. From here you need to take it for a spin. I'll say in advance your probably not gonna be overly impressed with the wyches but if you have enough terrain and luck is on your side then who knows. I ran a wych heavy list recently and it actually did.. ok.

On night shields, its the never ending debate. Pts add up quickly and they often get cut by people, myself included. However, after playing with and without, both old and new I can honestly say that 3+ jink on multiple skimmers is incredibly good. I ALWAYS want them and I don't need math to tell me they are good. I just don't always fit them.

Which brings me to.. night fight and warlord traits. You have essentially 4 ways of gaining stealth and one of them is guaranteed and costs points (NS). The other 3 are night fight turn 1 50% of the time (most armies bar tau don't have night vision, fu eldar) and 2 traits that either guarantee NF or make you godlike (conqueror).

So, do you take NS or not? well thats up to you. If you do theres a whole other debate on where they go. All or nothing is my preference and always, ALWAYS on my flyers. From there if you have to choose what not to put them on I'd actually say assault transports. They need to get close and thus will often not benefit, whereas a ravager can park in cover and well you've already got that sorted. Any board with decent terrain will make digging your gunboats out a pain in the ass without even having to jink.

aurynn- Math/smath I KNOW night shields rock brother plus its one of the things my opponents constantly complain about. You should try them sometime Razz.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts   New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 14 2015, 07:02

I did. :-) I used to take them. But after few battles I realized that that particular +1 is relevant only in very very rarely. Simply put - yes it does save HP but great majority times I either do not need to save that particular HP or even if I do save it, the vehicle is gone anyway.

BUT most opponents do not know this so it is a good deterrent. Assault transports is where I would consider them. But in the end I usually go with "defence is fer mon-keigh, true true-kin care only about offence". So na-ah for meeee. :-)
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RCZ
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PostSubject: Re: New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts   New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 14 2015, 08:28

Some suggestion:

*I prefer not use a standard detachment for covens. It is much more useful to take multiple formations and stack the freakshow rule (-1 Ld bubble). If against non spehhs-murrins armies could capitalize a lot with PGL and armor of misery.

*Drop witches. Small incubus unit (if well placed) can be far more useful.

*I usually toss the liquifier gun due the S3.

*I do not use the bomber, too much point and it is terribly vulnerable. Use his point for a small squad of talos instead. They could be a solid "pivot point" to make your opponent expose his side. Consider the corpsethief claw formation.

*No chain snares, yes shock prow. Much more funny when you ram a rhino ad it explodes. (Tip: raider should be empty for that time).
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The Immortal Dawn
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PostSubject: Re: New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts   New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 01 2015, 22:37

I know this is a dead topic, and apologies for the re-post. How I feel I need to thank everyone for their advice, especially you Brom.

I have played 4 games with this list no and with only a few minor tweaks. And so far I have 2 loses 2 wins against my long time opponents and friends. (1 loss, 1 win against Dark Angels and Orks)

One think that really has impressed me is the movement of the army and how much it can excel at Maelstrom missions. To the point where I even managed by the skin of my teeth to pull off controlling all 6 objectives for the supremacy objective (unfortunately i rolled a 1 on D3).

My key learning points from using this list have been
1. Wyches are better on jetbikes hence the unit of 9 and the raider are now 3 units of 3 jetbikes with cluster caltrops and blasters.
2. Not enough AP 2 weaponry for termies and mega nobz. These deathstar units are the armies weakness and require a lot of attention (especially with a damn lucky stick around.)
3. Incubi are good but lack strength sometimes and a Unit of 5 could do with being enlarged for more AP2.
4. Cluster caltrops can seriously wreck face.
5. Warriors even in small numbers can often provide a vital back up in a pinch when the key units just don't get lucky
6. Toughness 6 grots is serious fun. I ended up against death wing and the T6 grots saved the day.

Having read lot of the negative comments regarding the Dark Eldar codex, I was a bit worried and expecting my opponents to floor me. However having played I'm alot happier about there abilities and the amount of fun I can get out of them and I think alot of that is due to my starting list and the advice you guys gave me. So again thanks
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PostSubject: Re: New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts   New DE player, help wanted for 1st game, 2000pts I_icon_minitime

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