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CptMetal
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 11:09

No no no count. You just don't understand him. He's basically saying that the opponent should only use bikes. That's all. Because, you know, why not identifying the strongest unit and spam it? Because everything else is crap. Warp spiders suck. Void shields suck. Avatar sucks.
/Sarcasm off

Stop this madness! Please. It's not helping anyone always talking about that our codex sucks. It's basically like
"yeah. Nice weather, right?"
"no, because our codex sucks"

What enemies to you play against that you developed such a take on top this game? Do you only play against scatter bike only armies?

The Eldar player had great success with his shield and he was assuming that it would rock once again. I mean, come on, he did have enough bike squads. And the skull face guys ignore jink saves, which is kind of devastating against us.

So please. Please, reduce it. You're sounding like a broken disc, always repeating itself.
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 11:22

I would't judge Avatar as sub-par unit. It self it's not very good but with it gives scatterbikes fearless and some serious CC-power in to eldar palyers backfield. This years ETC:s second most succesful list had Avatar in it.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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Klaivex Charondyr

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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 11:40

Quote :
You're basically arguing that a TAC list built from the strongest codex is terrible in order to continue your relentless assault on our own codex and deny anything positive about it. If a decent list from our codex can take an average list from the Eldar codex then maybe it's not quite as bad as you make out. Giving the Eldar list 3/10 is frankly laughable.

It is FAR away from what he could have used thus 3/10 is ok in my book. More units, more S6 shots (nearly double the amount), more psychic powers/dice, more D weapons all for the same points.
Oh I do not deny "anything" positive about it. But the notion of "oh look I won by maximizing my army against a medicore list! This is the proof that our codex is good!" rubs me the wrong way.
In my mind if you want to compare, tkae a maxed out list against a maxed out list. Nobody is going to claim that a VW beetle is a superior or even proper racing car when his opponent did not bother driving faster than 10km/h.
Again. This is only this "I won, so I conclude our codex is good!" which irks me.

Quote :
Warp spiders suck. Void shields suck. Avatar sucks.

Oh Warp spider in itself as an All-comers unit are quite good. But against DE they are overpriced in comparison to other units.
Void Shields are still in my list. They are dirt cheap and basically take out all our shooting if applied correctly... which obviously did not happen as a RAIDER (yes, a big raider) could deepstike next to the generator. This should never ever happen.
And yes. The avatar sucks in this list. I can see the benefits in other Matchups and I think even the ETC had one finishing in a good spot but in this army and against this opponent he is just a waste of points.

Quote :
The Eldar player had great success with his shield and he was assuming that it would rock once again. I mean, come on, he did have enough bike squads. And the skull face guys ignore jink saves, which is kind of devastating against us.

So he did not tailor his army did he? And you still compare a tailored army to an all comers list to try to make a point.
Also yes, Reapers do ignore jink saves. And on the surface that looks great.
Than again they are S5 with 2 shots have T3 and move 6".
The bike (for the same cost) does not ignore cover but has S6, double the shots, moves 12+2d6 and have T4 (also scatterlasers are not on bikes only)
So in short: You need 18 scattershots to glance a jinking raider to death or 13,5 (14) Dark Reaper missiles. While the Missile seems still stronger, this is 5 Scatterbikes (20) but 7 Dark Reapers (14).

Quote :
So please. Please, reduce it. You're sounding like a broken disc, always repeating itself.

So do you. But I promise. I will stop as soon as people stop drawing conclusions about the quality of our codex by fielding maxed out lists against "average" lists.

Quote :
Do you only play against scatter bike only armies?

No. We settle for a power level. But if I am allowd to max out my list with everything possible from my codex, my opponent is also allowed to max out his codex. So if I only bring the strongest stuff from our books (Dark artisan, Grotequerie, Corpsethief, Venom Spam,..) my opponent is also allowed to bring his strongest units.
Because you know... if my opponent had to tune his list down while I play my strongest just to have an even battle, this would be a strong indication that the codex is garbage Wink
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 12:25

So you basically want me to continously repeat that our codex sucks? Because that's what you are asking for.
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 12:33

Reapers have a second firing mode that is s8.
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RCZ
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 12:44

He is asking you to admit that if you and your opponent accord on both maxed out lists (or viceversa both not maxed out lists) the DE army will be subpar.

So, he is asking to you to admit a fact that nobody here ignore.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 12:46

@CptMetal wrote:
So you basically want me to continously repeat that our codex sucks? Because that's what you are asking for.

Care to quote me on that?

Quote :
Reapers have a second firing mode that is s8.

Extra upgrade for 8 points per Reaper.
Still needs an average of 6 reapers (as you are down to 1 shot then) also note that they only ignore jink and not cover in general. So still more expensive than Scatterbikes. Don't get me wrong. They are not bad they are just not as good as other options and the other army had most of the best options available.
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 13:27

3 Scattbikes does 2 hp to a Jinking Venom or Raider. 5 Reapers may average 3 50% of the time. Better vs Raiders, worse vs Venoms.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 13:44

Quote :
3 Scattbikes does 2 hp to a Jinking Venom or Raider. 5 Reapers may average 3 50% of the time. Better vs Raiders, worse vs Venoms.

And why do you calculate that from the double amount of points? ONE reaper is as expensive as ONE Scatterbike.
So if you say 5 Reapers are better than 3 Scatterbikes... of course they are. You compare 81 points (3 Scatterbikes) to 125 (5 Reapers).
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CptMetal
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 13:46

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
So you basically want me to continously repeat that our codex sucks? Because that's what you are asking for.

Care to quote me on that?

Quote :
Reapers have a second firing mode that is s8.

So do you. But I promise. I will stop as soon as people stop drawing conclusions about the quality of our codex by fielding maxed out lists against "average" lists.

The only conclusion you are allowing is, that our codex sucks.

Quote :
I do not say it was not a deserved victory, but I do say that the Eldar deplyment was pretty much teethless.
I guess that was 1750 points all in all... more than enough space for 120 S6 shots and 7 D Blasts in a normal CAD.

Quote :
Quote :
   I am having a hard time seeing what he could have brought in a CAD that'd be better.


As I play both, there is a lot of space to improve.
Just because you do not see it, it does not mean that it does not exist.

Alone the fact that he brought Monofilament weapons against an I5/6 army is a poor choice.
Again, just ramblings.

Again: This forum is for discussions. Always stating that our codex sucks is no input at all. As soon as something happens that is not related to "this codex sucks" you´re all over it again.


Last edited by CptMetal on Thu Aug 27 2015, 13:51; edited 1 time in total
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RCZ
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 13:50

Yes, but you dont count other significant issue: scat bike are larger and cant stand on difficult terrain (unless you like risk). However are much more manouvrable.

This is the reason that i dont like the argument "owww s#it this unit is broken is OP" just because maybe is 5-15 pti less in cost compared to another unit.
I found a unit broken when it has maybe a unique rules that nobody else has or a rule interaction too much powerful.

I.E: i dont found any eldar unit to be broken, however i found spehss merrins whole broken because TSKNF. I found that rules too much powerful and kid-oriented.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 13:53

@RCZ wrote:
I.E: i dont found any eldar unit to be broken, however i found spehss merrins whole broken because TSKNF. I found that rules too much powerful and kid-oriented.

I second that. It´s basically to easy to play them. Negates one part of this game. Morale.
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RCZ
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 13:56

it's not our and neither GW fault if the kids are naturally oriented to testosteronic bro-darkness of spehss murfins but dont like to see their ubermensch units to flee the table.
An adult could manage to see his preferred squad not shooted to a glorius death but flee the field. A kid maybe dont like it.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 14:14

Quote :
Yes, but you dont count other significant issue: scat bike are larger and cant stand on difficult terrain (unless you like risk). However are much more manouvrable.

The risk is pretty small (you have to roll a "1" and then fail your 3+ save, that is 1:18) and the larger hull can actually help you against blasts. You rarely need to hide them.
I would not call that "significant" as the positive side spots 12+2d6 movement (+turboboost) and T4 while also beeing a bit better in melee (that is minor). Also the 2D6 movement allows them to go to safety after shooting which is a big plus.
So in short nearly equal firepower greater range, better survivability, WAY better mobility and ObjSec makes them the better option.
Certainly not in every situation (Ravenwing bikers for example) but good enough to make other units look bad in comparison.

Quote :
Again: This forum is for discussions. Always stating that our codex sucks is no input at all. As soon as something happens that is not related to "this codex sucks" you´re all over it again.

And unlike you, Im discussing. I have not seen any contribution from you since well... ever. Except your defense for the codex which is just jumping at anyone with a different opinion.
I have not see a single argument from your side to counter mine.
You just jump in, declare everything I write "just rambling" and fly off again without leaving anything worth talking about.
And yes, my opinion is that - compared to the post necron codices - our codex sucks. Luckily we are not alone in this area but with more and more codices revised it gets pretty lonely in the "not op" section.
And again: All Im saying is stop claming "See it is a good codex" when you manage to win with a maxed out army against a casual list.
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chickendinner
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 14:28

[quote="Klaivex Charondyr"]
Quote :
And yes, my opinion is that - compared to the post necron codices - our codex sucks.

May we consider Demonkin for a moment? Then again I feel we've had this discussion before...
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 14:40

Yes, we had indeed Very Happy
All in all the Daemonkin codex is pretty good. Maybe not on par with Eldar and Marines but you can build very powerful lists from it if you don't mind spamming.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 15:02

A friend of mine lost badly with wraith heavy guys against Khorne Deamonkin. He said they are brutal. The Khorne player is a feared one in our gaming group. He's a pro. And those blood hounds are evil.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 15:23

Quote :
Also in terms of listbuilding yours was I guess a 7/10 with not much space to get better while his was a 3/10 with some of the weakest Eldar units.

So yes, it is not all doom and gloom if your opponent doesn't play a competitive list while you do.
Bad form dude. Almost feels like your being a sore loser on behalf of the eldar player.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 15:30

I consider it equally bad form if you tailor a list against a TAC. But each to his own. My point is rather that it is hardly a proof of how good our codex really is if your maxed out list beats a list that contains Eldar guardians on foot.
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Sulmo
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 15:53

As an Eldar player how would you tailor a list to beat DE?
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 16:03

But we don't know what the eldar players mindset was when he made those choices. If he's like you and I and play both armies then perhaps he knew that DE can tool against scatbikes pretty well and thought to diversify his threats. He is packing 6 pieces of armour with plenty of ranged output including barrage, torrent and jink ignoring guns all of which could be extremely useful vs DE, acompanied by a solid counter assault element that buffs his army and some higher strength low ap weaponry. Seems appropriate for what DE could bring.
Maybe he wanted fearless for Ld shenanigans or just to prevent running off the board. Maybe he tried to tailor his own list and just missed the mark a little. Who knows, but I wouldn't call the DE list maxed out by any stretch either not with so much poison and so little disi's/ap 2-3.
People get hung up on scatbikes but they have weaknesses especially to our army so I wouldn't call 4 units +2 seers weak at all.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 16:06

@Sulmo wrote:
As an Eldar player how would you tailor a list to beat DE?

Personally I'd just take as many Shuriken Cannon as I can lay my hands on. I know Scatter Lasers receive all the best publicity but if you can deal with the shortened range and lower ROF the AP5 and potential AP2 of the SC basically means that it can destroy literally anything in our army. Plus it's cheap and you can mount it on cheap vehicles (Vypers and War Walkers) that are literally immune to the majority of our armies firepower (ie any poison).

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 16:10

Depends on the restictions. But as mentioned before (I guess your point limit was 1750) my list would have contained around 120 scatter shots (Hornets, Warwalkers and Scatterbikes) and 7 Strenght D blasts (while still keeping the void shield and adding more psi dice)
Also I still have troubles understanding how he could not stop you from deepstriking right next to the generator with a raider when you still have to be at least 1" away from his units and all his stuff is clumped up under the shield.

Quote :
But we don't know what the eldar players mindset was when he made those choices.

We do know that because:
Quote :

I have seen what my opponent usually runs and it's not pretty. He usually runs lists with the following units:
An assortment of Eldar str 6 gunbikes
A squad of 3 eldar hornets (ugh)
Warp spiders
That bike unit with the psykers on bikes
A void shield generator to keep them all safe...

Which was... kinda exactly what he actually fielded in this game too. So no. He did not tailor it as he ran it before.

Quote :
it on cheap vehicles (Vypers..)

I disagree with the vypers (not because they are bad against DE) because they sit in FA which is also the Slot that contains the Hemlock which is awesome against Grots and Taloi.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2015, 16:16

Quote :
Also I still have troubles understanding how he could not stop you from deepstriking right next to the generator with a raider when you still have to be at least 1" away from his units and all his stuff is clumped up under the shield.
Now this I agree on and its what I mentioned in page 1. He's probably not overly familiar with using the geni or else the battle would have been a lot harder. VSGs can be incredibly oppressive against us if your not prepared. I've been crushed hard by the VS network plenty of times but even 3 shields can be a beating for us.
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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Re: Advice against Eldar   Advice against Eldar - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28 2015, 06:43

This thread is interesting. I think DE players have an uphill battle in the current meta. I am trying to win my local league. I had won four games in a row out of six games. I asked for advice from this little forum community because I can see that the only other player who is 4/0 is a well ranked Eldar player. He has solidly beaten 4 other serious players. He is not a fool and he knows how to use his list. I needed some help!

You know what? I got good advice from this group. I took the advice and went on to win because of that advice. And am now the only undefeated player in the league. If I can hold strong on sports and paint, I'll win the league. But you know what else I got? A troll that basically wanted to moan about list building. I wasn't trying to prove anything about our codex or the eldar one. I was looking for advice. If you read the fist post, the league mandates 1/3rd of the points must be devoted to troop choices. So the Eldar player was constricted on what fancy stuff he could take, just as I was. I would love to have taken all grots or talos in the world...

I asked for advice to help me win, I got it and I won. That's the point of this forum. Seriously, Klaivex Charondyr, can you just back the frak up or go and play in the imaginary league that seems to be playing out in your head? This kind of trolling sucks because I really like most of the comments, feedback and ideas I get on this forum.

RB
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