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 Help with Hellions

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Aniasis
Hellion
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Posts : 49
Join date : 2011-09-22

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Hellions   Help with Hellions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01 2011, 16:55

I will work on the Math for a Vanguard when I can. I do not know their stats off the top of my head. And the Hellions do not survive being hit by the hammer. The math averages out that the Thunderhammers terms would miss a minimum of 1 to wound roll, leaving 1 hellion to not be killed.
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Thor665
Archon
Thor665

Posts : 5526
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Hellions   Help with Hellions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01 2011, 16:57

Unit/Unit at equal points is a slippery slope. Because either they're against units you're unlikely to see (people run Vanguard+Chaplin? Or they can be controlled to show what you wish them to show;

By the same logic I could go - Ogryns are better than Wyches - point for point you get 3 Ogryns (one is a bonehead) versus 8 Wyches (inculdes Hekatrix, w. Agoniser and Haywires - the common Wych load out and within 4 points of the Ogryns). The Wyches would be walking and the Ogryns could get off a round of shooting with their effective 18" threat range for shooting.

Ogryns shoot 9 shots, 4.5 hit, 3.7 wound = 3.1 dead Wyches after saves - we'll say 3 dead Wyches.
Wyches then get to assault - we'll give them +1 Str drug which really is their best chance versus the total awesomeness of Ogryns.
The Agoniser will do 1 power weapon wound.
12 regular attacks - 6 hit - 2 wound = 1.3 wounds after saves. So...1 wound, he wound allocates for no dead Ogryns. Since there are two wound groups there.
Ogryns attack back - 10 attacks - 5 hit 4.16 wound = 2 Wounds after saves.
The 3 remaining Wyches will probably do 1 wound and *maybe* kill one Ogryn next round, and the Ogryns will grind them out and win.

Ogryns are awesome versus Wyches and Wyches are their b[redacted]!
Yeah try to sell a DE or IG player on that one.


Except, that's not really legit, and I'm blatantly setting up the situation to favor the unit I desire to win.

If we want an honest discussion about Hellions and their functionality in assault, we need to agree upon what type of units they might be assaulting, and under what conditions.

I think, with a large enough squad of Hellions, they have a reasonable chance to deal with very elite and very small squads which they have a better initiative then - because that's what they are good at - unleashing a whole bunch of attacks at decent initiative, and if there aren't too many opponents they can overwhelm them via wound resolution so at least it's a tie or the Hellions win.

Where Hellions fall apart is versus assault squads that also go for mass of attacks (Orks) or assault squads that dork with their initiative advantage (Banshees...though, actually this might be fun to crunch numbers on, as Hellions might still win this one) or versus squads that do both (Purifiers or Halberds in GK - this is also paired with decent armor saves, the other bane of Hellions)

So, at that stage the basic question is - how many favorable matchups are available for Hellions versus the types of lists you usually find yourself playing against?
In the environment I play in - the answer is 'next to none'. Someone else might have a different answer - but I do feel that there are very few things that a squad of Hellions can do, that one can't accomplish for less points with Wyches - and that's really why Hellions come across as sub par.
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kenny3760
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Location : Inverness Scotland

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Hellions   Help with Hellions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01 2011, 17:46

Ah sorry, I read hits as wounds.
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astorre
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Hellions   Help with Hellions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 01 2011, 20:10

@Thor665 wrote:

So, at that stage the basic question is - how many favorable matchups are available for Hellions versus the types of lists you usually find yourself playing against?
In the environment I play in - the answer is 'next to none'. Someone else might have a different answer - but I do feel that there are very few things that a squad of Hellions can do, that one can't accomplish for less points with Wyches - and that's really why Hellions come across as sub par.

I've been playing with a mob of Hellions & I basically agree with Thor on this one. Not saying I don't like them, won't use them, or that they are not good. But I don't feel they're a must-have like, say, Blasters.
I play competitively, and some units that I think are good I just don't use because if (in a tournament) I get lined up across a certain unit then that squad becomes pointless. I don't use Incubi just because the chances of running into GK w/Halberds is too high, and then I spent a lot of points on an assault unit that can't assault anything without dying first.
I don't think that Hellions can be a frontline assault unit. If you happen to have bout 15 of them and are going to jump on a depleted squad of 3 Marines, then ok. But other than that no chance.
Most of their benefits come in with the Baron (who works just as well with a Beastmaster squad). They are mobile, have a good number of poisoned shots, and become a Stealth-ed scoring unit which is never bad. They can also serve as a distraction to your opponent who might spend inordinate amounts of firepower to put them down. And given the right circumstances they are pretty good at assaulting lightly armoured vehicles, or at least surrounding them in the event of a wreck.
If you want a fast assault unit, I'd go for Beasts. If you want a unit that can score, and can clean up a battlefield nicely in those last turns, I'd go for Hellions. (If you got a WWP, I'd go for both!)

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The Black Hand is an underground cult of assassins who will fight as mercenaries for wealth or to further their own designs. They are dedicated to the preservation of the Eldar race, whom they believe to be the rightful heirs to the galaxies, and to the downfall of Asdrubael Vect. To the members of the Black Hand, these two aims are inexorably entwined, and to fail one is to fail them both, condemning their people to damnation.
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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Hellions   Help with Hellions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 02 2011, 07:31

Personally I now, after seeing the light, go for both.
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astorre
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Hellions   Help with Hellions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 02 2011, 14:48

@kenny3760 wrote:
Personally I now, after seeing the light, go for both.

I look forward to your tactica Very Happy

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Grand Master of the Black Hand

The Black Hand is an underground cult of assassins who will fight as mercenaries for wealth or to further their own designs. They are dedicated to the preservation of the Eldar race, whom they believe to be the rightful heirs to the galaxies, and to the downfall of Asdrubael Vect. To the members of the Black Hand, these two aims are inexorably entwined, and to fail one is to fail them both, condemning their people to damnation.
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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Hellions   Help with Hellions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 02 2011, 16:06

Check out http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t583p40-kenny3760-goes-to-war

to see my current list analysis and how I see it working together. Beasts and Hellions really do compliment each other well.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Hellions   Help with Hellions - Page 2 I_icon_minitime

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