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 How to use beastmasters.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 21 2011, 10:21

Hey guys. I want to include a beast unit in my 1750 pt games. I dont use wwp in this list.


I want it to...

a. Scare my opponents into shooting at it.

b. Take that shooting and stay alive to...

c. Multicharge those parking lots, usually space wolf rhino/razorspam, stunning and shaking 2 or more
vehicles.


I know if my opponent wants to shoot this unit to death he can. If he does i want him to have to waste a lot of shots doing it. I would prefer he do this than waste my paper planes. I will deploy this unit centrally, in cover, to be on him turn 2.


I was thinking - 4 beastmasters, 5 khymera, 6 razorwing. No Baron. Lots of rending and wounds. 4 models removed for a morale test. Ld 8.


Is this unit big enough to do what i want it to? Do i have to take the Baron? No wwp comments thank you.

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xzandrate
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 21 2011, 13:31

You may find that dropping 2 razorwings for 5 Khymera will serve you better for what you propose.

The Khymera are more durable with the 4++ save, and with strength 4, they are going to be just as effective as the razorwings at stunning/shaking vehicles(probably more so since you get a few extra beasts). It will also bulk up the unit, and make it look suitably 'deathstarry' so it will draw fire.

I normally run 3 beastmasters 5 khymera 4 razorwings, and on numerous occasions it's soaked up a ton of firepower (thank you broken wound allocation rules) so it is doable.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 21 2011, 16:02

You want a scary unit to soak fire, here you go

Baron
5 beastmasters
10 kymerae
6 razorwings

alittle cheaper

Baron
3 beast masters
5 kymerae
4 razorwings

And cheapest
2 beastmasters
5 kymarae
2 razorwings

Your problem is that baron gives them a ton of survivability. Sure, they dont need him. But since you are looking at them taking fire, he is worth his weight in gold.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 21 2011, 18:22

@xzandrate wrote:
The Khymera are more durable with the 4++ save
Neutral Razorwings are more durable with 5 wounds though, yeah? The only thing Khymarae are better against is Str 6+ shooting - so you only need a couple of them to sop that stuff up, especially when you consider with cover that Razorwings functionally will have a 4++ save as well

@xzandrate wrote:
and with strength 4, they are going to be just as effective as the razorwings at stunning/shaking vehicles(probably more so since you get a few extra beasts).
That's an interesting thought...make me want to do the math to find out. Let's presume they hit a gunline that didn't move;

5 Khymarae vs. AV 10
15 attacks autohit - need 6 to glance = 2.5 glancing hits


2 Razorwings vs. AV 10
10 attacks autohit - need 6 to rend - 1.6 rends = .5 glances and 1.1 penetrates

You're correct - the Razorwings are a touch better at penetrating, but overall the Khymarae are more likely to shake/stun.

@xzandrate wrote:
I normally run 3 beastmasters 5 khymera 4 razorwings, and on numerous occasions it's soaked up a ton of firepower (thank you broken wound allocation rules) so it is doable.
That's my build of choice - adding in Baron Sathypants makes it even harder to kill (and he's a fine option to split off from them and go assault a vehicle as well.
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The Strange Dude
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 22 2011, 06:33

The interesting thing about mixing Khymera and razorwings when attacking vehicles is that Khymera are Initiative 6 and razorwings 5. So if your opponent moved then your khymera hit first if they should manage to immobilise the razorwings auto hit. It might not come up often but is a usefull rule to know.

(Psst Thor calcs on cc forgot the plus 1 attack for charging)

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 23 2011, 10:27

Good tip dude. I'll remember that.

So it seems 3 beastmasters 5 khymera 4 Razorwing is the most widely used. Preferably with the Baron. Seems small to me, don't think it would survive long without the baron. Ill give it a try.

Thanx guys.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 23 2011, 11:33

@The Strange Dude wrote:
The interesting thing about mixing Khymera and razorwings when attacking vehicles is that Khymera are Initiative 6 and razorwings 5. So if your opponent moved then your khymera hit first if they should manage to immobilise the razorwings auto hit. It might not come up often but is a usefull rule to know.

Not sure this is correct... i need to recheck but i was sure that the immobilised needed to occour in the previous phase... so in shooting in this case...

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The Strange Dude
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 23 2011, 12:08

WH40000 v1.4 FAQ

Q: If a vehicle moved during its last Movement phase,
but is immobilised by the time a models initiative value
is reached in close combat, what roll is needed to hit it?
(p63)
A: It will be hit automatically.


makes nobs with power klaws nasty (ok nastier).

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 23 2011, 14:47

Cool! Thats good to know!

Thanks!

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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 23 2011, 18:16

yeah, its the same in CC with a dread , if you can immob it at a higher I everyone after hits on WS ;o)

Nice catch strange dude, worth remembering.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 24 2011, 23:59

an important point to remember is that although razorwings have 5 wounds they get insta killed on a paltry st6. This is the key point behing having khymeras for me. The fact they will make some saves is gravy!
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 25 2011, 08:05

Clawed feind is worth having for several reasons, he can soak a few str6 plus hits for everything else, helps with the wound allication mini-game. He also makes the unit more reliable vs vehicles, I think you miss out by not including him.

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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 25 2011, 09:00

@up
He is nice when you dont need 40pts elsewere, but in the end few 5Sattaks dosnt cut lot for me.
But you need him when your opponent start tailor his list so he can maim your razors(damn him and his shuriken cannons).

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 25 2011, 17:13

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Clawed feind is worth having for several reasons, he can soak a few str6 plus hits for everything else, helps with the wound allication mini-game. He also makes the unit more reliable vs vehicles, I think you miss out by not including him.

So instead of Khymerae, you use the Fiend? How's that work out?

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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 25 2011, 17:43

Uhm no, you need kimmies too, just I think the fiend has a place, with ever increasing amounts of str6 +in the game and mech I think he is worth a look a 4++ is ok ....

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 25 2011, 18:23

But the Str 6 is fairly functionally dropped to the Khymarae or one of the useless Beastmasters.

40 points gets me a Clawed Fiend with 4 wounds to absorb Str 6 shooting and 4-7 attacks.
48 points gets me 4 Khymarae with 4 wounds to absorb Str 6 shooting and 3-12 attacks.

I don't really see the Fiend as that valuable as opposed to the doggies. *Maybe* at higher point values when I can intentionally drop some wounds on him to make my unit stronger for a little while - but I would be hard pressed when offered the option of just more Khymarae or Razorwings. I really would probably take 2 Razorwing flocks for less points spent, more wounds gained, and figure the dogs will protect me from whatever Str 6+ shooting he opts to point at me. The doggies are also better once you get to h2h and want to deal with Fists and the ilk.

Outside of Eldar and Grey Knights few armies have the points to burn on it, and frankly if they're dumb enough to be shooting my Beasts as opposed to my skimmers, that's fine.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 25 2011, 21:51

I feel you're right the fiend does have a place. The first few wounds lost pumps it up rather than weakening the unit. that's kewl. Maybe at long range when multiple shots from same unit aren't coming in and I've got a cover save anyway.

Thing is though, I've got built in ablative wounds in the extra beastmasters. All I want is one staying alive. The razorwings toast stuff better than the others. The kymerae are useful defensive and not shy going forward. Where does the fiend fit in?

I'm not sure, maybe just maybe in a unit with just beastmasters and fiends where their toughness 5 actually has an effect on the opponent's shooting. I don't know. Imagine a unit with 2 of them with a paid token on the beastmasters. T5 unit in cover with feel no pain bloody hard to kill, easy to hide, bloody quick and a nasty counter attack (10-13 st5 I5 attacks are not to be sneezed at especially if you are in a vehicle rear armour ten). mmmmmm I may have talked myself into something here?

Fiends are not rubbish, just not as good as the other two choices paired I think.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 26 2011, 15:38

I see the fiend as the lascannon taker. Pretty much you get shot by a LasPlasBack or something, he takes the wound and keeps on moving, making him better. The problem being is that the Dogs have a chance at surviving that lascannon, isntead of just "taking one for the team". I find no use for him, maybe if he was cheaper, but how it stands he meh compared to his compatriots.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 19:47

I have to ask, why do people include the Baron in a unit of Beastmasters? True they get Grenades and stealth, but they also lose the 12" assault which is far more valuable in a unit that already packs along numerous invul saves and dozens of wounds.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 20:45

considering he makes them actually able to take a few more shots, and on top of everything if you ever need that 12" charge, he can always leave and run into the nearest tank. I find he actually gives them alot, and all you lose is one thing, that with one move can be gained back.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 29 2011, 20:59

Shadow basically owned any answer I might have given to that question.

I also rarely find I "need" that 12" assault with a fleet unit. I think maybe 1 game in 20 (totally made up numbers ftw!) has me seperating my Beasts and Baron - it doesn't happen often at all, usually I just make it into assault normally.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 03 2011, 12:27

So if you had to take a beast unit without the Baron, maybe because your in a league with no SC. What would it look like?
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PostSubject: Re: How to use beastmasters.   How to use beastmasters. I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 03 2011, 14:22

That would tend to depend on the points value of the game and what role I wanted them to fill. The classic 3 Masters, 5 doggies, and 4 birds is probably a decent base starting point though.

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