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Raven Cowl
Hellion
Raven Cowl

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PostSubject: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 01:22

I have yet to win a single game with my Dark Eldar. I am not very happy with my decision to start with them. Should I shelve them for a bit and collect something else? Or push on through the hordes of loses and keep chugging on the murder train? Thanks in advance.
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 01:31

it might be the way you're running it? Really no answer here this is your call on this. I took some losses and I figured out my niche you might just need. In a really good if you can get the hang of them it just takes some long time to get the hang of them I've seen people go a year without winning and they got the hang of it and then started winning just keep at it or it's your call really.personally I don't give up on something or start so I started to. Can I lost a few games and I corrected myself all about your personality really
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CurstAlchemist
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 01:39

Well lets begin with the basics: Have you read the guides here to see if they provide you with any insight as to what you can do to improve your tactics? https://www.thedarkcity.net/t11454-dark-eldar-guides

When you lose, are you losing by a large margin or is it just losing by a point or three? If you are holding your own without losing massively I wouldn't take it to hard on myself but then again I'm not a competitive person myself.

Maybe even post a few batreps and ask the experienced players for tips on how to reorginize your army or improve your game.

Our army is definitely not one that you expect to win with as soon as you purchase it, it does take time and experience to get used to the ins and outs.

As for whether you should shelf them and move onto a different army, only you can decide that.
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Raven Cowl
Hellion
Raven Cowl

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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 01:48

I've read a number of tactics articles here and every time I put down my Dark Eldar I get tabled. Idk maybe I shouldn't be trying to make a pure codex list work. I know we are a challenge and that's partly what drew me to the Dark Eldar in the first place but sheesh... of course I mostly play against Space Marines, Necrons and Tau.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 01:49

Do you enjoy the way the army plays, but become frustrated by loss? This could just be an experience thing. (It takes years to get good at this game, and this is a tough army to master to boot.)

If you frequently find the ARMY is what irritates you, get out now and save yourself years of headaches.
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CurstAlchemist
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 01:54

Those are some tough match ups for someone getting started. Do you run Kabals lists, Coven, or both?

If you like the Eldar in general maybe look into building some of the other Eldar factions armies, most namely the Craftworld Eldar. You will be battle brothers when deployed together and gain full benefits if you want to dust off the Dark Eldar from time to time while learning.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 02:08

That's true. You can always convert DE into Harlequins or Craftworld Eldar easily enough.
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Raven Cowl
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Raven Cowl

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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 02:15

@Jimsolo wrote:
Do you enjoy the way the army plays, but become frustrated by loss?  This could just be an experience thing.  (It takes years to get good at this game, and this is a tough army to master to boot.)

If you frequently find the ARMY is what irritates you, get out now and save yourself years of headaches.


I like the army. I'm just sick of losing. Not, that I'm some hypercompetitive jerk (anymore).


I'm trying to run a mostly Kabal list with Warriors, Venoms, Scourges, and Reavers.

I am increasingly considering buying into some Craftworld Eldar though.

Sorry for the whine fest just needed to vent I guess.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 05:55

Buy some Craft World Eldar. That doesn't invalidate your investment up to this point. Maybe you can use them to create your own pirate army...
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Lord Veshnakar
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 06:05

I guess it also greatly depends on your gaming group. My friends are kind of "all about the fun" of fair and balanced play so you won't see a lot of decurions or multiple wraithknights. I myself play 90% pure harlequins with a splash of commorragh so if you want to talk about bringing clowns with knives to a gunfight I have you covered.  

You also need to break down and decide why you are REALLY playing the game as well. Are you more into the hobby side of things with the game secondary? Or is it all about the game first and hobby second and maybe even everyone just does their best to get their glued sea of grey models to the table?

If being competitive is your concern you are always going to be playing the underdog game with dark eldar. They require a lot of finesse and coordination to win. Makes the victories all the more sweet though in my opinion.
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Archon Rievect
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 08:26

Well one thing you can try...is play your list with the last codex and then play another friendly game with the new needed 7ed one,you will see how bad gw nerfed and screwed up our wargear and point,options. Then decide what you may want to do..a lot of players and members have adopted various ways to cope but gw,probably do to whiny sm players, totally nerfed us and buffed others..look at the new eldar codex-es ....un....real.....

Not trying to be a downer but running a pure de army is almost to the point of not easy or feasible.
As a group we here sent a list of questions,grievences and the answered like 2...and contradict what is in the basic rulebook to boot....basically they are morons..and don't even follow their own fluff or the books they put out.
I completely gave up my csm because they basically killed them as a playable army.
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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 08:37

It is a tough match up if you want to play pute DE competativly against most other competitive armies. In the group I play with, winning is definetly part of it, but not all of it. We try new units all the time, try new missions, even make up some scenarios, just to spice things up. I know that this style of play makes playing my Dark Eldar a blast. When i play competitively, its a completely different game. Still fun, just different. I usually have to spam our strongest units and leave out everything else if all im trying to do is win. For example, reavers and scourges are both good units, some would argue great, but I don't think they are our best.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 11:49

You could try sharing your list(s) with us, along with the enemy lists they lost to. I'm sure many players here can offer you good advice on how to improve your own lists, and also how to best fight those of your opponents.

If you want to go a step further, you could write up one or more battle reports. This would allow us a better understanding of your tactics, and those of your opponent. So, we should be able to offer further advice for future games.


In any case, if you do decide to use a different army, I'd suggest at least hanging onto your Dark Eldar until the next codex is released. It's fair to say that our current book doesn't exactly paint the army in its best light. Rolling Eyes
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 13:56

Took me at least 6 months to get a win with the previous army book. I now have a decent win-loss ratio and came away from a tournament at the weekend with 2 wins out of 3 (including a win vs aspect and scatter laser jetbike eldar).

Playing DE is not straightforward, I strongly recommend starting at low points games and trying lots of different units in different ways to get used to how the army plays.

One thing I can honestly say is that when you can win games with DE, you'll be tactically more astute than most of your opponents, and things like playing to the mission and concentrating your firepower will come as second nature whereas (currently) eldar players don't have to learn many strategies or tactics to win games.

As per previous poster's comments, post up your list so we can have a look and try to help, picking out strategies for you etc.

What I will say is that Necrons are exceedingly tough at the moment, marines are always good and tau through markerlights have a form of kryptonite to our best form of defence (jink).

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 15:04

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

One thing I can honestly say is that when you can win games with DE, you'll be tactically more astute than most of your opponents, and things like playing to the mission and concentrating your firepower will come as second nature whereas (currently) eldar players don't have to learn many strategies or tactics to win games.

Whilst I agree, one thing I do find is that after playing DE for a while, I forget how slow my other armies are.

I also have an unfortunate habit of creating Chimera traffic jams, as I forget my vehicles can't just jump over each other. Wink
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 17:43

It is said in my local gaming club that I have heard the saying "Dark Eldar actually has a learning curve"
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@miral
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 11 2015, 22:04

Besides what was said already, what often was recommended here on other occasions: swap armies with your friends for a game or three. That might change your perspective and also help you with your decision.
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Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 12 2015, 05:22

So many great responses for you Raven Cowl. Can you please up your list in detail for us to work out some options because usually list building is the first thing that should be considered when trying to balance the win loss ratio. Also, how and where you place your units play a huge part in success or failure. We can't take any punishment so don't be hanging your stuff out for half his army to kill.

Don't make it easy to kill you and don't make it a fair fight either

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Raven Cowl
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 12 2015, 13:39

Thanks for the great response guys,

My list from the last game was

Archon w/ Blaster, WWP, and Shadowfield 150 pts

Warriors in Venom 105pts x 2

Haywire Scourges 120 Pts

Comes out to 480 out of 500 pts.

at low points we play for kill points and tabling at my FLGS.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 12 2015, 13:59

Well, right off the bat you've got 20pts unspent. In such a small game that's a lot of points going to waste.

What I'm really looking at though is your HQ. He's the most expensive model in your army, and yet is also bringing the least. His firepower is pitiful (even without his excessive cost), Shadowfield is overpriced at the best of times and just a flat-out waste here. In higher point games, you could maybe think about tanking wounds, but in this sort of game you really want more offence. Same goes for the WWP - you don't have anything in this army that's worth spending 35pts to accurately position - least of all your archon.

What I'm thinking is that you drop his WWP and Shadowfield, then buy him a Venom (with Splinter Cannon) and use the remaining points to buy each of your warrior squads a blaster for extra utility.

I believe that comes to exactly 500pts.
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 12 2015, 14:07

In such a small game, I would use a ?Lhaemen? as your HQ. It's only 10 pts. 75 pts if you give hima venom (much more usefull and still less expansive then your archon).

I would also switch the Scourges for a DL Ravagers unless you are always facing a couple of tanks. While the Scourges are better at killing tanks, they are easily killed and are a waste against infantry. DL Ravagers will still be decent at killing armor and will be great against elite infantry.
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Raven Cowl
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 12 2015, 14:22

Ok, makes sense but I don't really see how much one extra blaster shot out of the venoms would do.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 12 2015, 14:25

@Raven Cowl wrote:
Ok, makes sense but I don't really see how much one extra blaster shot out of the venoms would do.  

Depends what you're fighting, really. But, these days there are a lot of vehicles and 2+ saves floating around. Considering our splinter weapons can't even glance AV10, I'd rather at least have the chance to hurt a vehicle. Otherwise all your opponent needs to do is take out your scourges/ravager and their vehicles are basically untouchable against you.
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Raven Cowl
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 12 2015, 14:42

@The Shredder wrote:
@Raven Cowl wrote:
Ok, makes sense but I don't really see how much one extra blaster shot out of the venoms would do.  

Depends what you're fighting, really. But, these days there are a lot of vehicles and 2+ saves floating around. Considering our splinter weapons can't even glance AV10, I'd rather at least have the chance to hurt a vehicle. Otherwise all your opponent needs to do is take out your scourges/ravager and their vehicles are basically untouchable against you.


Good point. Next time I'll certainly try that out. Thanks. I'm looking into getting a couple six man Reaver Squads. How do you think they'd fair?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Dejected Over the Dark Kin.   Dejected Over the Dark Kin. I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 12 2015, 15:01

At 500pts my only concern would be fitting them in - especially since their point costs are 'awkward' (i.e. not multiples of 5).

However, for any higher point games, Reavers tend to be good investments.

I own 9 of them and run them in about 90% of my 1500pt lists. I quite like them in squads of 3 with one having cluster caltrops and a heat lance or blaster (though, if I had 12, I'd probably use 2 squads of 6). Anyway, the Heat Lance and Caltrops make them very dangerous to vehicles (and decent against other stuff too), making them hard to ignore. But, with 3+ jink and potentially FNP, they're also difficult to pick off with minor firepower. Most opponents aren't pleased at having to dedicate a considerable amount of firepower to removing 3 jetbikes, but they ignore them at their peril.

They're also very good for grabbing objectives, and their 36" turbo boost lets them get into position really easily.

Oh, and they're the perfect height to give your vehicles cover, should you need it.

The only thing you really have to watch out for is Ignores Cover stuff. Markerlights might not be too bad, as if they're shooting your jetbikes then they're not shooting your vehicles. However, Flamers and, worse still, torrent flamers will just roast them.

But, yeah, I'd say Reavers are one of our better units.
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