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Jimsolo
Dracon
Jimsolo

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PostSubject: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2015, 23:22

So, according to the lore, the only way to become an Incubus is to A) be one of their recruits but then to B) kill another Incubus for his warsuit. Likewise, to advance you must defeat the person you wish to supplant. (Source) At least some of these promotion battles would end in death too, we presume.

So here's my question: how does the Incubi system not collapse? With zero growth, any casualty is an irreducible loss. Is there an alternate system for replenishing their ranks I'm not seeing?
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Klaivex Charondyr
Wych
Klaivex Charondyr

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 06 2015, 00:55

Most of the sources are older, but this would only lead to stagnation if we consider an unending line of supplicants.
I also guess that they give "spare armor" to the best newcomers (after they slaughtered any challenger) if new warriors are needed.
I would consider this info outdated as it is not in the new codex and they do not even have tormentors anymore.
Perhaps rather stick to Morrs story of how he became an Incubus.
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CurstAlchemist
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CurstAlchemist

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 06 2015, 03:42

I see them in their current incarnation as kin to aspect warriors. New armors are created when needed but they pass down the armors when one is slain within the shrine. Instead of replacing an Exarch who dies in battle and inheriting their armor you instead kill that individual and claim it for yourself.

Unlike the Craftworlds the population of Commorragh are not in decline, there is always a steady flow of local eldar to aspire to join the shrines and this steady flow ensures that their numbers don't decline.

This is my view on it anyway and I have not read Path of the Incubus so I'm not sure if my view on it is limited do to this.
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Mngwa
Wych
Mngwa

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 06 2015, 11:05

Warhammer wiki isn't best for accurate lore. (I would suggest Lexicanum for that...)

There is nothing canon preventing incubi from advancing in the ranks without killing someone. Neither is there lore about someone becoming an incubi simply by killing someone who is. They recruit people like anyone else, burn those who are not good enough in shrines to Khaine. The codex tells of the largest shrines having "aspirants and supplicants in their thousands come to barter for the services of the Incubi, or to beg entrance into this black-hearted brotherhood" (pg. 20)

EDIT: It has been a while since I read Path of the Incubus, but I don't think there was too much new info on incubi organization, especially since a lot of the incubi-action was happening outside of Commorragh.

I'm not sure about their armour either. Is there some source that tells that they are not made anymore? I can believe that they keep their armour well stored and it has a lot of ritual meaning but I don't think they are exactly like that.
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CurstAlchemist
Wych
CurstAlchemist

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 06 2015, 15:15

@Mngwa wrote:
Warhammer wiki isn't best for accurate lore. (I would suggest Lexicanum for that...)

There is nothing canon preventing incubi from advancing in the ranks without killing someone. Neither is there lore about someone becoming an incubi simply by killing someone who is.

While this is true we do have mention of Incubi being able to obtain higher rank within the shrine by killing those who hold the possition.

"The duel was over within minutes, and the newcomer stepped over the Hierarch’s cooling corpse.
By rights the challenger was entitled to take the throne, but Drazhar merely cleaned his blade and sketched a simple bow. Though he has never shown any inclination to take up the position of Hierarch or Klaivex, his merciless skill in the battle arts of the Incubi is unparalleled. So it is that Drazhar occupies the post of Executioner, the champion of his order, lethality personified."

Quote :
They recruit people like anyone else, burn those who are not good enough in shrines to Khaine. The codex tells of the largest shrines having "aspirants and supplicants in their thousands come to barter for the services of the Incubi, or to beg entrance into this black-hearted brotherhood" (pg. 20)

EDIT: It has been a while since I read Path of the Incubus, but I don't think there was too much new info on incubi organization, especially since a lot of the incubi-action was happening outside of Commorragh.

I'm not sure about their armour either. Is there some source that tells that they are not made anymore? I can believe that they keep their armour well stored and it has a lot of ritual meaning but I don't think they are exactly like that.

I have not come across anything that mentions that they do not make new armors nor have I come across anything that says that new armors aren't granted to aspirants who have shown the proper skill to be included into the ranks of the Incubi Shrine. I really don't know why they wouldn't make new armor. From what I can tell, unlike wraithbone the materials used by the Dark Eldar don't repair themselves over time, or atleast there is no mention of it from anything I've read.
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Jimsolo
Dracon
Jimsolo

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 06 2015, 15:37

@Mngwa wrote:
Warhammer wiki isn't best for accurate lore. (I would suggest Lexicanum for that...)

Except in this case. (I usually check both.)

The Lexicanum article on Incubi has less info than the one on Warhammer Wiki. I guess the author decided to make up for it by including more compositional errors though.

Lexicanum articles sometimes contain more info, but frequently look like they were written by a drunk who's learning English as a second language.
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Mngwa
Wych
Mngwa

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 06 2015, 21:49

@Jimsolo wrote:
Lexicanum articles sometimes contain more info, but frequently look like they were written by a drunk who's learning English as a second language.
I got to agree with this at times. But not always.

@Jimsolo wrote:
@Mngwa wrote:
Warhammer wiki isn't best for accurate lore. (I would suggest Lexicanum for that...)

The Lexicanum article on Incubi has less info than the one on Warhammer Wiki.  I guess the author decided to make up for it by including more compositional errors though.
Less info doesn't mean less accurate info, and neither does more and more text mean it is more accurate. And if there were compositional errors on warhammer wiki, it would probably be because someone at GW wrote a book badly and they pasted it.

There's just some info that is plain unsourced (basically the entire article, I guess, since there are no footnotes), like on the Hierarchs (even some weird stuff like calling them equivalents of exarchs?). And it is just wrong that incubi would only advance or gain warsuits based on another incubus dying. You should find some actual sources that tell that instead of quoting random pieces of text in the wiki. I can see some of the copy-pastes (from codices), but if you are claiming anything in between those parts as lore, you need to know the source. Could be fanfiction for all we know.

It could be outdated too (which I know Lexicanum does also), I am not sure what 3rd edition looked like on this. In that case, there probably is a source but it isn't one that would be relevant.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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Bibitybopitybacon

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 23 2015, 18:36

The new incubi has to "defeat" a proven incubi and take his warsuit, not kill. If you killed an incubi with a klaive while they were wearing their warsuit, there probably wouldn't be much left of it for the new guy to wear. Probably some form of ritualized unarmored combat. They probably give the old guy a new shiny suit afterwards.
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CurstAlchemist
Wych
CurstAlchemist

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 23 2015, 18:57

So you're saying that in a society where weakness is something you never show for fear of it being used against you, the Shrine would give you a new suit of armor at no cost and not just mock you and abuse you for your failure?

Its to bad about that whole losing thing, that armor had quite a story behind it, oh before I forget, here is your concelation prize.

I doubt that the Dark Eldar have a culture that give people participation awards.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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Klaivex Charondyr

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 23 2015, 19:36

You keep forgetting that Incubi are Aspect Warriors and not exclusively Dark Eldar. Even a Craftworlder or Exodite can beome an Incubus.

The reason why they are more agressive than the Rest of the Aspect Warriors is that they do not try to avoid the mindstate of an exarch. Basically they are all Exarchs and "trapped" in their art of warfare.

An Incubus is not particularly more violent or bloodthirsty than a Craftworld Exarch.
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CurstAlchemist
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CurstAlchemist

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 23 2015, 20:36

Where does it state that they "are" aspect warriors? Everything I've read says that they are Aspect Warrior "like" but I have not read anything that states that they are aspect warriors. Maybe it was in the Incubus book I haven't read?
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Klaivex Charondyr
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Klaivex Charondyr

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 23 2015, 23:43

When Morr talked to Motley he told him a different story of Arhra.

Basically that they all trained Aspect warriors and the other Phoenix Lord got jealous because his students where better, so they tried to force him to restrain his students because they also were more agressive.
This argument did become a fight and he had to flee.
He also did not like the other Lords definition of "Eldar" because Asurmen told them to protect the Eldar race and all the other Lords did was protecting the craftworlds altough there was another breed of eldar without protection. So he protects the commorites.
His "betrayal" was (all according to Morr) also a misunderstanding. Arhra did fight the daemons invading his shrine and got corrupted and his last order for his students was to slay him.
So yes basically they receive the same training as aspect warriors the only difference is that Incubi do not take off their warmask (like exachs who can't do this any longer).
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CurstAlchemist
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CurstAlchemist

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 24 2015, 00:29

Can I ask the source of that quote?

Also what other places besides Commorragh have Incubi Shrines, in our Codex it says the shrines are spread throughout the city but make no reference to them being on craftworlds or exodite worlds.

Also the ports are not close to other Eldar, it is possible for a Craftworld Eldar, Exile, or Exodite to travel to the city and then go to a shrine to train here. Nothing stops them from doing it other then the dangers of the city itself.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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Klaivex Charondyr

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 24 2015, 01:02

Incubus by Andy Chambers

The shrines are scatter through the webway

Morr (one of the main characters in this book) was a former Exodite
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The Strange Dark One
Wych
The Strange Dark One

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 24 2015, 01:49

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
Can I ask the source of that quote?

Also what other places besides Commorragh have Incubi Shrines, in our Codex it says the shrines are spread throughout the city but make no reference to them being on craftworlds or exodite worlds.

Also the ports are not close to other Eldar, it is possible for a Craftworld Eldar, Exile, or Exodite to travel to the city and then go to a shrine to train here. Nothing stops them from doing it other then the dangers of the city itself.

It was in Path of the Incubus, what he says is correct, I've read it too. From my understading the shrines in Commoragh are just some sort of holy retreat, created specificly for Incubi. So they are not the full deal.

IIRC the Incubi actually train in a sub-realm of the webway outside of Commoragh.
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CurstAlchemist
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CurstAlchemist

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 24 2015, 02:00

Thanks guys for letting me know, as I said in previous posts I haven't read the book. I plan on getting it at some point just haven't gotten around to it.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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Bibitybopitybacon

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 26 2015, 05:42

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
So you're saying that in a society where weakness is something you never show for fear of it being used against you, the Shrine would give you a new suit of armor at no cost and not just mock you and abuse you for your failure?

Its to bad about that whole losing thing, that armor had quite a story behind it, oh before I forget, here is your concelation prize.

I doubt that the Dark Eldar have a culture that give people participation awards.

The book never says kill. It says defeat. If you had to kill an incubi to become an incubi a bottleneck in incubi numbers would form pretty quickly. Therefore assuming something that isn't stated, that incubi are killed in the duel, that also makes negative sense from shear statistics, is silly.

New incubi would have to be trained somehow. I imagine the incubi they defeat is their mentor or trainer, and they are given a new suit as a reward for successfully training an applicant to the point where he is considered worthy of being called an incubi. Just my imagination though!
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Mngwa
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Mngwa

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 26 2015, 12:08

The codex itself states that the largest shrines have aspiring incubi flocking in to them "to beg entrance into this black-hearted brotherhood". It doesn't say anything about killing other incubi (although it does hint that some of the recruits who are not worthy themselves are killed?)

Can we move on past this unsourced claim that an aspiring incubus has to kill another incubus before becoming an incubus?
There's more than one shrine, maybe some of them do something like that as a tradition, but still.
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CurstAlchemist
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CurstAlchemist

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 26 2015, 14:43

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
The book never says kill. It says defeat.

And no where in my post did I say kill when speaking of the aspirant becoming a full on Incubus.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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Bibitybopitybacon

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 26 2015, 17:00

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
The book never says kill. It says defeat.

And no where in my post did I say kill when speaking of the aspirant becoming a full on Incubus.
You're right. I miss read your comment. My apologies!
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Lord_Alino
Lord_Alice
Lord_Alino

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 29 2015, 02:07

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:


New incubi would have to be trained somehow. I imagine the incubi they defeat is their mentor or trainer, and they are given a new suit as a reward for successfully training an applicant to the point where he is considered worthy of being called an incubi.  Just my imagination though!

I agree with this.
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The Fume Knight
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The Fume Knight

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi recruitment   Incubi recruitment I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 02 2015, 10:21

From what I read in the newest codex, it appears that while people come to the incubi shrines asking for their services, or entrance, some of which are apparently killed on the spot and thrown in fire pits, I assume that those asking to join them perhaps are sometimes given a chance to prove themselves? I'd also assume that if the Incubi deny the person and go forward to slash them apart, and the person can fight the incubi off on his own, maybe they are then reconsidered.

I forgot where I read it as well, but I think it may have been on a wiki.. But supposedly the aspiring incubi must defeat another aspect warrior to become an incubi.. I almost wonder if there is a possibility that maybe the Craftworld Eldar are also in on this.. and allow single combat between one of their aspect warriors and an aspiring incubi, if the incubi wins, on his return to the shrine, he is given a warsuit and the ritualistic klaive. I'm quite interested in the Incubi. They are by far one of the most badass models in the codex, albeit warhammer 40k in general. Razz

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