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Count Adhemar
The PayneTrayn
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Cerve
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Klaivex Charondyr
Wych
Klaivex Charondyr


Posts : 918
Join date : 2014-09-08

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 21 2015, 20:08

I don't want to be rude, but you do not have a whole lot of experience, do you?

Because a statment like "in this case my strategy would be to kill half his force," is just (sorry) stupid.
Because my statement would then be "my strategy would be to table you turn 3". Equally valid with no list or actual math provided.
Also a drop pod list (an Sentinel of Terra player I often play uses them a lot) does not "murder". In fact, drop pod lists are quite weak if they do not have a high value target to kill. There is a difference between melting a Serpent and shoot at everything that survives and get your points back or sacrifice a 155 points unit (naked!) to kill 81 points.

Quote :
I will take down or incapacitate at least 4-5 depending on how many reserves I field.

And again... no list provided, just a "I will take down". This is not a given, especially not if you do not provide any clue of how you want to do this.
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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve


Posts : 1212
Join date : 2014-10-05
Location : Ferrara - Emiglia Romagna

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 21 2015, 23:27

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
So DS Medusae will kill just...one...maybe two bikes

The bikes can't be more than 2" apart, the flame template is 8" long and you have to remain at least 1" away from the bikes. If you're coming in with a WWP there's no reason you shouldn't be able to hit 3 bikes minimum, and with multiple templates in the one unit you could easily take down a reasonable sized squad. The biggest issue would be judging the size of medusa squad you need, since they're not cheap and you want to avoid overkill.

Each medusa should (on average) kill half the models underneath the template (S4 T4, ignoring saves) so I'd say that for 3 strong units of bikes you want two medusae, then possibly two more if the unit opposing you is 6 strong etc.

Also, don't forget that as long as you stay 1" away there's no restriction on where you're placed, so if the bike unit is large and adopts the fairly common 'S' shape to minimise template casualties, you can pop out of your WWP with bikes on 3 sides, maximising not only your damage in terms of models covered, but also the extent of the template in terms of range (you don't just remove casualties from under the template, but all those within range of the template, so only stuff more than 8" away from your venom is immune. And if they're being sneaky like that, then bring a couple of sslyth in the same unit, or just shoot them with the venom itself...

If you cover 3 Bikes, you kill 3 Bikes. Even if you do 20 wounds.

(well, precisely, is the lenght of the Template that limit your wounds).
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Dark Lance
Hellion
Dark Lance


Posts : 29
Join date : 2014-10-08

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 01:44

I think a good number are hitting the nail on the head. Attack their leadership.  A WWP character with armor of misery and 20 kabalite warriors.  Land in their backfield, maybe secure an objective, kill 3 bikes and watch them fail leadership on a 6.  Next turn, shoot the next unit of bikes trying to jump shoot jump.

Well maybe they survived and their return fire is awesome.  With WWP be sure you arrive in cover.  How about sprinkling in some infiltrating mandrakes to kill even more bikes before their LD test.  

Did the enemy jink?
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PainReaver
Sybarite
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Join date : 2012-10-21

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 04:15

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
I don't want to be rude, but you do not have a whole lot of experience, do you?

Because a statment like "in this case my strategy would be to kill half his force," is just (sorry) stupid.
Because my statement would then be "my strategy would be to table you turn 3". Equally valid with no list or actual math provided.
Also a drop pod list (an Sentinel of Terra player I often play uses them a lot) does not "murder". In fact, drop pod lists are quite weak if they do not have a high value target to kill. There is a difference between melting a Serpent and shoot at everything that survives and get your points back or sacrifice a 155 points unit (naked!) to kill 81 points.

Quote :
I will take down or incapacitate at least 4-5 depending on how many reserves I field.

And again... no list provided, just a "I will take down". This is not a given, especially not if you do not provide any clue of how you want to do this.

List are a few posts back. Check through it.

Archon in his own boat, 3 Blasterborns in a boat, 2 warriors in a boat, 2 razors with dissies, and 4 reaver units. Boats are all venoms. (This is the Pure DE version, the one with Eldar allies is something like swapping out a trueborn here and there, and adding a Wraithguard, an Autarch and some Windriders.)

Not much (admittedly i've had more 40k games this year than i've had for the last two editions), but enough experience and some cerebral thinking (yay unemployment), to not go ape and panic.

Drop Pod marines can combat squad, providing full 10. And against MSUs, 5-10 bolter shots will be enough to induce an LD test.
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Klaivex Charondyr
Wych
Klaivex Charondyr


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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 06:40

Quote :
List are a few posts back.

With that list you can not null-deploy, have no reserve manipulation and can't guarantee the removal of units at all as your range is inferior.

If you allie in Eldar, beating Eldar should not be hard... but that is way beside the point of beating Eldar with Dark Eldar and not with other Eldar.
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PainReaver
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 06:56

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
List are a few posts back.

With that list you can not null-deploy, have no reserve manipulation and can't guarantee the removal of units at all as your range is inferior.

If you allie in Eldar, beating Eldar should not be hard... but that is way beside the point of beating Eldar with Dark Eldar and not with other Eldar.

You are correct, I can't null deploy (which was never the intent- as 4 reavers attest) , nor have reserve manipulation (barring a warlord trait).

On the last one, however I can deep strike 6-8 units and cripple as many as I can off the board (all i have to do is cause 1-2 casualties), and hope for the best, because honestly this is the best list I can think of.

The list's weaknesses are vulnerability to Interceptors and the off-chance that not enough of my reserves hit the board.
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CptMetal
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 11:09

I once tried a mandrake unit at a com station. As the only units on the field. Not too bad
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PainReaver
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 12:29

@CptMetal wrote:
I once tried a mandrake unit at a com station. As the only units on the field. Not too bad

That is a very mon'keigh solution. lol!

I for one will not partake in such savagery.
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CptMetal
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 12:33

I don't want to use eldar and that station is the best way to manipulate my reserve rolls.
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krayd
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 14:24

So, the Wraithknight does look ridiculously scary (and ridiculously under-costed - that thing should probably be 400 pts *minimum*). However, out of curiosity, how many games do you play where your opponent actually uses Lords of War? I don't really see players taking them, where I am... but I'm wondering how common they are in casual games. So, sure, it's a travesty in terms of codex writing, but the actual practical effect of its existence might not be that great (and I fully expect TO's to step in and revise the point cost of the WK or nerf it in some other way).
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The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
The_Burning_Eye


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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 14:49

the super-heavy/gargantuan type lords of war, not very often unless it's agreed on in advance.

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The PayneTrayn
Hellion
The PayneTrayn


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Join date : 2014-07-20

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 15:35

Would a scalpel squadron with an attached archon with WWP and an archangel of pain be a pseudo-counter to bike spam?
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar


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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 15:55

@The PayneTrayn wrote:
Would a scalpel squadron with an attached archon with WWP and an archangel of pain be a pseudo-counter to bike spam?

I assume you intend to put the WWP and Archangel in the Scalpel Squadron? If so, sadly this is not possible. The Wracks have to start the game in the Venoms and in Deep Strike so no way for an IC to be in there too.

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The PayneTrayn
Hellion
The PayneTrayn


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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 16:00

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The PayneTrayn wrote:
Would a scalpel squadron with an attached archon with WWP and an archangel of pain be a pseudo-counter to bike spam?

I assume you intend to put the WWP and Archangel in the Scalpel Squadron? If so, sadly this is not possible. The Wracks have to start the game in the Venoms and in Deep Strike so no way for an IC to be in there too.

Huh. Though it said dedicated transport, not venom. My fault for not reading the formation in a month.
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Calyptra
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 16:38

@The PayneTrayn wrote:
Would a scalpel squadron with an attached archon with WWP and an archangel of pain be a pseudo-counter to bike spam?

If you're looking for a Coven formation that will let you stick Wracks in Raiders, there's Scarlet Epicureans (2 units of Wracks, a Haemonculus, and a Cronos which you may not want) and the Covenite Fleshcorps (Haemonculus and 3 units of Wracks that must be on Raiders, which may be more Raider-riding Wracks than you want).

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The PayneTrayn
Hellion
The PayneTrayn


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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 22 2015, 17:43

Well, I was trying for a first turn deep strike alpha strike, and hitting multiple units at once. I wouldn't use Wracks otherwise,  unfortunately. Looks like i'm back to leadership shenanigans with harlequins, with a grotequerie for CC support.
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Tounguekutter
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 23 2015, 15:43

I get the feeling that GW just expects us all to really want to play Eldar, but maybe want to take a unit or two of Dark Eldar or Harlequin allies. That seems to be the only explanation to me. Or maybe someone thought that the Dark Eldar should never be on equal footing with the other codices, that the challenge of compensating for codex weakness is what playing Dark Eldar is all about. As for the present Windrider problem - Wyches will do fine if you can get enough of them into assault. Don't forget our warriors are only 8 points a pop. Send in a throwaway 40 point unit to soak up Overwatch, then have a healthy Wych squad or two jump in and pin down if not destroy the Windriders.

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The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 23 2015, 15:53

Not sure wyches will do 'fine', they'll still be facing off against a T4 3+ save unit. Sure, they'll be able to tie it down fairly effectively but they aren't going to mulch them unless it's a minimum sized unit.

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Tounguekutter
Sybarite
Tounguekutter


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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 23 2015, 16:01

Like I said "enough Wyches." The problem may be that you have to commit too many for what it's worth. I'm banking on the notion that point for point Wyches are better in combat than Windriders.

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JackKnife01
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 23 2015, 16:10

In regards to the which thing i think of it as valdimir lenin once said."Quantity is a Quality all of its own"
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Klaivex Charondyr
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 23 2015, 16:49

@Tounguekutter wrote:
Like I said  "enough Wyches."  The problem may be that you have to commit too many for what it's worth.  I'm banking on the notion that point for point Wyches are better in combat than Windriders.

Sure they are better "point for point" but they do not exist in a vacuum.
To get your 40 points distraction Kabalites into combat with a unit of windriders, you will need a transport. Otherwise it will get shot from 36" away with S6. So that is another 55 points on top of them just to get them there. Then you want the Wyches to finish them off, which will probably be another 100 points without any equipment and they will also need a transport or get shot to pieces, so that is another 55 points.
We are at 250 points now to finish one unit of Windriders (and I think we can agree that the wyches will die afterwards, as they are in the open eating fire from everywhere)... 250 points is close to 9 Windraiders with Scatter Lasers (3x3 preferably).
The main problem with our "answers" is, while they probably will do their job they are significanly more expensive than the "problem" and can solve only ONE problem while the high point cost indicates that for every ONE "answer unit" you can create TWO (or more) "problem units"
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JackKnife01
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 23 2015, 17:01

Beyltter option is reavers as they can capture and have some better survivability

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Klaivex Charondyr
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 23 2015, 17:55

Reavers are... complicated.
While yes they are point for point a good answer (if they dont die in massive S6 shooting) when they enter melee, they sit in the Fast Attack Slot together with Razorwings (our only Anti-Ai and the Hemlock will probably be devastating) and Scourges.
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JackKnife01
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 23 2015, 18:07

Real space raiders let's us take 6. Potential for 72. Now I have a list of 37 bikes, 30 reavers and run falcios blade to bring harlequin bikes. 4bwith haywire and 3 with shuriken cannon. Voidweaver with prismetric cannon. Allows for small blast marker with str 5 and ignores their armor. True 4 up jink but still
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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve


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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   New eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 23 2015, 18:53

Multiple Scalpel Squadrons? I wanna try something like that. Against 3x bikes they can give you a "simple" First Blood
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