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 Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!

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Onemeanduck
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PostSubject: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 09 2011, 18:20

So I like Lady Malys and Razorwings the best by far from the dark eldar codex.. Now I have been challenged to find a way to use razorwings competaively.. (Since our 2 best local DE players say anything other then raveners is not competative) And since I cant refuse a challange like that I MUST TAKE THE 2 razorwings... Plus i own them, helps my arguement.

I really want to make a Lady Malys army as well.. immune to Psyker powers is a little cool but I really like the redeployment thing. I can replace my bikes somewhere so they can skim 36 inches, bladevaynes, and then get ready for the anti tank mission they have... I can also place one razorwing on each table eldge then move one to smash one flank... Endless possibilities... Though going second doesnt do much unless there are scouts /infultrators i suppose... She is ok at killing stuff and just fun to use... But I might not find her in my tourny armies... either way the razoriwings are huge...

MY biggest question is do I really need heamies? I understand FNP is great for wyches and this current build makes it possible for both wych squads starting with FNP but really? I may just keep them for this reason alone.. But looking at most oturny armies archons are rarely used and just lots of heamies... Sad

Here is my army so far.
130 – Lady Malys
60 – Haemonculus – Liquifier gun

196 – Wyches x8 – Hekatrix, Agonizer, Haywires
Raider – Flickerfield
196 – Wyches x8 – Hekatrix, Agonizer, Haywires
Raider – Flickerfield

130 – Wracks x5 – Liquifier Gun
Raider – Flickerfield

130 – Warriors x5 – Blaster
Raider – Flickerfield

125 – Warriors x5 – Blaster
Venom – Extra Splinter Cannon

166 – Reavers x6 – 2x Heat Lance

146 – Trueborn x3 – 3x Blasters
Venom – Extra Splinter Cannon
146 – Trueborn x3 – 3x Blasters
Venom – Extra Splinter Cannon
146 – Trueborn x3 – 3x Blasters
Venom – Extra Splinter Cannon

155 – Razorwing – Flickerfields
155 – Razorwing – Flickerfields
115 – Ravager – Flickerfield

Total 1996
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Anggul
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 11 2011, 17:05

If you're using 5-man squads you should probably go for venoms instead of raiders.

I don't know what the people are on about, Razorwings only have one less dark lance, and the missiles really scare the crap out of infantry.

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"Oh how awful, did he at least die painlessly? To shreds you say? Well, how's his Dracon holding up? To shreds you say? Very well then... Sad, sad, terrible gruesome news about my colleague Archon Mhu'bhutu." - 'The Feather', Dracon of the Bladed Lotus
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 12 2011, 20:25

Onemeanduck wrote:
MY biggest question is do I really need heamies? I understand FNP is great for wyches and this current build makes it possible for both wych squads starting with FNP but really? I may just keep them for this reason alone.. But looking at most oturny armies archons are rarely used and just lots of heamies... Sad
Sounds like you're against Haems in general then because they're popular - if that's the case a lot of your list should be changed Wink

Do you "need" Hames? Certainly not, I have at least two tourney proven lists that don't use them at all.
Are they really good and useful fro giving FNP to assault units? Most assuredly.
The big question to my mind is - what would you use the saved points for if you didn't get Haems? That seems the real question you need to answer before I could really tell you in general whether I thought your Haem drop idea is good or not.

Overall, i like the list a lot, looks very competitive. Normally I'd encourage shifting the RJBs to 2 units of 3, but with Malys your choice makes a lot of sense.

My other question is - is Malys going with those Wracks? If not, I'm not sure why you have the Wracks there, and would advocate Warriors w. Blaster in a Raider instead. If she is, then I approve of the Wracks.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 12 2011, 20:26

Anggul wrote:
If you're using 5-man squads you should probably go for venoms instead of raiders.
silent
I disagree heartily on this.
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Anggul
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Anggul


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PostSubject: Re: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 12 2011, 20:33

Thor665 wrote:
Anggul wrote:
If you're using 5-man squads you should probably go for venoms instead of raiders.
silent
I disagree heartily on this.

Why is that? They're cheaper and come with flickerfields. The only reason to take Raiders over them is the Dark Lance, and it looks like he has enough anti-tank already.

_________________
"Oh how awful, did he at least die painlessly? To shreds you say? Well, how's his Dracon holding up? To shreds you say? Very well then... Sad, sad, terrible gruesome news about my colleague Archon Mhu'bhutu." - 'The Feather', Dracon of the Bladed Lotus
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 12 2011, 22:37

Anggul wrote:
Why is that? They're cheaper and come with flickerfields. The only reason to take Raiders over them is the Dark Lance, and it looks like he has enough anti-tank already.
Define 'cheaper' I suppose. At the end of the day the basic difference is 5 points. So...yeah...that's a savings, but is it one wherein one can say Venoms are "better" because they're cheaper? I personally do not think so.

The debate between Venoms or Raiders is indeed one of a question of anti-infantry vs. anti-mech.

However, please recall that your comment was he should use Venoms because he's using 5 man squads - and that is something I very much disagree with. Just because the squad is 5 men has nothing to do with whether they should be in a Raider or a Venom.

Now, to the actual debate of what he needs more of - anti-infantry or anti-mech, let's do a quick breakdown;

Anti-infantry
Malys
Haem w. Liquifier
8 Wyches
8 Wyches
Wracks w. Liquifier
Razorwing
Razorwing
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom

Anti-mech
Ravager
Reavers (by Turn 2, on Turn 1 they're probably still just anti-infantry, varies)
Trueborn (By Turn 2, a little hard to use on Turn 1 unless you wish to disembark, which I'm against on average)
Trueborn (By Turn 2, a little hard to use on Turn 1 unless you wish to disembark, which I'm against on average)
Trueborn (By Turn 2, a little hard to use on Turn 1 unless you wish to disembark, which I'm against on average)
Wyches (if he does a push the front line deployment and you have good run rolls)
Raider
Raider
Raider
Raider


So, on Turn 1 he has 5 targets (Ravager and 4 Raiders) that he can nail with lance fire in an attempt to de-mech them. Since you and I both know the success rate of lances - he's not de-meching much. So at that point maybe a few extra targets/chances via a Trueborn squad or two...and that's really probably about it.

Then he has that giant army of things that want to blow the ever-lovin frell out of things that are disembarked. Looking at the two lists, I am very much against the idea of some Raiders becoming more Venoms for the saving of five points. I don't think it's the best option available to him.

My thoughts,
Thor.
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Onemeanduck
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PostSubject: Re: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 13 2011, 02:31

I have no problem dropping my trueborn out of venums for first turn fire... I do it all the time just fine... so they are turn 1 easily.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 13 2011, 04:09

I still think you need the Raiders more than Venoms - but if you feel the need for more anti-infantry Venoms are a good place to start.

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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 13 2011, 17:09

The razorwing is also anti-mech. It only has one less lance than a ravager.

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"Oh how awful, did he at least die painlessly? To shreds you say? Well, how's his Dracon holding up? To shreds you say? Very well then... Sad, sad, terrible gruesome news about my colleague Archon Mhu'bhutu." - 'The Feather', Dracon of the Bladed Lotus
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 13 2011, 18:50

It also has missiles and some type of splinter weapon you're paying for - mostly the missiles.

Every round it's alive and not shooting its missiles is a round where you're

1. Paying more for a Ravager with less armor.
2. Paying more for a Ravager with less lances.
3. Paying more for missiles that are going to be useless if this AV 10 all around, needing three story terrain to hide behind, is wrecked before it fires them.

Thus - your first Turn or two (depending on how aggressive you like to be with missiles and what sort of targets of opportunity you have available) of the Razorwing is best used by having the Razorwing shoot infantry. Add in that the Razorwing is probably "best" deployed via reserve due to its anti-infantry use paired with its glass jaw (though I'll happily admit this is open to debate) and you probably have, at best, 1-2 turns where the Razorwing is "free" to be a less effective Ravager - and those are late game turns when anti-mech is less important to DE.

So, yeah, it can serve the purpose of being anti-mech, but it's not an anti-mech unit in any way I can logically see.

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Cailos
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PostSubject: Re: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 13 2011, 19:09

Razorwings can demech with Monoscythe missile at str 6. Anything armour 11 or below can get a pen hit from Monoscythes. I am not saying its the best but it can still be done.
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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 13 2011, 19:19

I think it's more the fact that once they launch off all of their missiles, they become a low priority target and tend to get a turn or two of dark lance firing as the enemy has to deal with the rest of your army.

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"Oh how awful, did he at least die painlessly? To shreds you say? Well, how's his Dracon holding up? To shreds you say? Very well then... Sad, sad, terrible gruesome news about my colleague Archon Mhu'bhutu." - 'The Feather', Dracon of the Bladed Lotus
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 13 2011, 20:01

@Cailos - I *might* try that if the splash of the templates will hit a lot of troops around the vehicle in question. But I cringe at the thought of burning those babies trying to crack almost any vehicle.

@Anggul - I can agree with that reasonably - but the value of mech popping is highest in the first turn or two that your army is on the field. And even a Razorwing player like myself who pops all of his missiles on the turn the Razorwing is first there (either 1 or the turn it flies in) is looking, at best, 2 lance shots on Turn 2? A turn I can have Blasters in range, much less all my lances? It's okay, but it's hardly a viable answer to anti-mech in a list.

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PostSubject: Re: Themed Competative army... 2k Malys!   Themed Competative army... 2k Malys! I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 16 2011, 02:44

well all in all pure mech is not longer my meta.. Once a few of the more experienced players started to run anti mech hybrid lists and crsuhed face with them everyone is sorta walking more and more towards hybrid lists. Yes I will see some pure mech armies.. but less then normal areas and only with the weaker players... The better more experianced players around here always bring hybrids.. And I fear their armies 10 times over IG or GK mech spam...
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