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 Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss

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ronin_cse
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PostSubject: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 13:55

I posted this on Warseer earlier expecting an easy answer, but the discussion has been going on awhile so I figured getting some fresh opinions might be a good idea. Here's what i posted there:

@ronin_cse wrote:
The Harlequin Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequin's Caress and a Harlequin's Kiss. The caress makes to hit rolls of 6 auto wound/glace on ap2. The Kiss allows the user to change one of their close combat attacks to a str 6 ap 2 attack with ID on a 6. The exact wording at the beginning of the rule for the kiss is: "Kiss of Death: When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its attack will be a Kiss of Death Attack...". The rest wasn't relevant to the question. The important part is the bolded text, it was a model equipped with it, not a model attacking with the weapon. As far as I can tell RAW (and possibly RAI) says that you could use the Caress to attack, but one of your attacks would still be the Kiss of Death attack since the requirement is simply being equipped with the Kiss. I can't see anything that contradicts that, can anyone else?

Had a few replies saying that was correct then had someone say:

Quote :
This wouldn't work, since the kiss of death is a special rule of the weapon in question (much like shred or daemon weapon). Thus this rule can only work if the weapon is actually used (although the rule itself only requieres only the act of equipment. This requierment comes into play after the weapon has been chosen in the cc sub phase, since it's a weapon special rule)

The specific rule is on page 41 and states:

Quote :
MORE THAN ONE WEAPON
Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot – he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase. If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons. However, it’s worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 attack in close combat.

After that it was a bit of back and forth with me defending my original interpretation of the rule. I will just copy my last post which I feel sums up my feelings of the matter. I use comparisons to other weapons to make my point:

@ronin_cse wrote:
Well I still don't agree. I'll just give you the exact quotes for their special rules from the BRB and Harlequin Codex real quick and then we can probably just agree to disagree on this:

Assault Grenades:
"Assault: Models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty to their Initiative for charging enemies though difficult terrain, but fight at their normal Initiative in the ensuing combat"

Harlequin's Kiss:
"Kiss of Death: When a model equipped with a Harlequin’s Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its Attacks will be a Kiss of Death Attack (roll this Attack separately). A Kiss of Death Attack is always resolved at Strength 6 AP2. If a 6 is rolled To Wound with a Kiss of Death Attack, that attack has the Instant Death special rule."

As you can see they both start out EXACTLY the same. As I read it the Kiss' special rule isn't affected by the rule allowing only one melee weapon's special rules to be used because it isn't applying to the attacks from the weapon, it is applying the effect to the model

Since I keep referencing it here is the special rule for the blizzard shield as well:
"Shield : A blizzard shield confers a 3+ invulnerable save against all hits that strike the Dreadnought’s front armour facing."

Here is an example of a special rule that does specify the weapon, which is what most of the rules look like (from the Space Wolf codex again just because it is what I have open atm):
"Helfrost : When a model suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from this weapon, it must pass a separate Strength test for each Wound suffered or be removed from play."

Finally here's another example from the SW codex that will probably just confuse matters more, it is for the Black Death:
"Whirlwind of Death : The bearer of Black Death gains +3 Attacks for the duration of any Fight Sub-phase in which he is locked in a combat that contains more enemy models than friendly ones."

I guess with my interpretation of the Kiss that would mean a model could take the black death, but attack with a chainsword and still get the +3 attacks.

So what do you all think?

Here's the link to the topic in case anyone wants the whole discussions, it's only 2 pages: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?406830-Harlequin-Solitaire-and-a-Harlequin-s-Kiss-question
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 14:26

I honestly do not understand why this is an issue at all. You even refrence the rule yourself:
Quote :
MORE THAN ONE WEAPON
Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot – he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase. If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons. However, it’s worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 attack in close combat.

The key sentence here being: " he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."
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ronin_cse
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 14:28

Because the s6 ap2 attack isn't coming from the weapon, it is coming from the special rule. If the above rule prevents the special rule for the kiss from working then it should prevent the special rule from assault grenades and from the blizzard shield from working as well if they aren't used to make an attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 14:35

This was briefly touched on in the Harley release thread here.

The discussion was by no means exhaustive, but the de facto ruling was the same as your interpretation.

As @Count Adhemar pointed out, the Kiss of Death rule states that it occurs from a model simply being equipped with the weapon, while the Harlequin Caress specifically calls out To Hit rolls benefitting from its respective special rule.

Additionally, the Kiss of Death rule doesn't actually let you choose whether you benefit from it or not, it simply happens.

Also, codex trumps BRB when there's a conflict, so that particular rule becomes irrelevant.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 14:44

I agree on the Blizzard Shield. The Dreadnought have to choose either the benefit from the shield or the greataxe (as per the quoted rule).
As for assault grenades, these aren't weapons, so they do not really count here. They're just pieces of wargear, which happen to have an effect during assault. Granted, some assault grenades, like Plasma Grenades, have the added bonus of also having a weapons profile, but even then the assault adjustments isn't part of the weapons profile.
The "Kiss of Death" ability from The Harlequin's Kiss, however, IS part of that weapons profile, and thus there is now way around the previous quoted rule:

he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."
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ronin_cse
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 14:46

@Sigmaril wrote:
I agree on the Blizzard Shield. The Dreadnought have to choose either the benefit from the shield or the greataxe (as per the quoted rule).
As for assault grenades, these aren't weapons, so they do not really count here. They're just pieces of wargear, which happen to have an effect during assault. Granted, some assault grenades, like Plasma Grenades, have the added bonus of also having a weapons profile, but even then the assault adjustments isn't part of the weapons profile.
The "Kiss of Death" ability from The Harlequin's Kiss, however, IS part of that weapons profile, and thus there is now way around the previous quoted rule:

he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

So in your reading of it a Space Wolf Dreadnaught with the shield can't benefit from the 3++ outside of combat?
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 15:00

@ronin_cse wrote:
@Sigmaril wrote:
I agree on the Blizzard Shield. The Dreadnought have to choose either the benefit from the shield or the greataxe (as per the quoted rule).
As for assault grenades, these aren't weapons, so they do not really count here. They're just pieces of wargear, which happen to have an effect during assault. Granted, some assault grenades, like Plasma Grenades, have the added bonus of also having a weapons profile, but even then the assault adjustments isn't part of the weapons profile.
The "Kiss of Death" ability from The Harlequin's Kiss, however, IS part of that weapons profile, and thus there is now way around the previous quoted rule:

he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

So in your reading of it a Space Wolf Dreadnaught with the shield can't benefit from the 3++ outside of combat?
I never gave it much though before, but no. But I probably wouldn't have anyway, as it says "3+ invuln save against all hits that strike...", and I tend to hold that word to count for close combat only (as also shown in the difference between Precision Shot and Precision Strike).

Edit: I believe the dreadnought has to take his pick between S10/AP2, or S6/AP2/+3 Invuln.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 15:06

@Sigmaril wrote:
@ronin_cse wrote:
@Sigmaril wrote:
I agree on the Blizzard Shield. The Dreadnought have to choose either the benefit from the shield or the greataxe (as per the quoted rule).
As for assault grenades, these aren't weapons, so they do not really count here. They're just pieces of wargear, which happen to have an effect during assault. Granted, some assault grenades, like Plasma Grenades, have the added bonus of also having a weapons profile, but even then the assault adjustments isn't part of the weapons profile.
The "Kiss of Death" ability from The Harlequin's Kiss, however, IS part of that weapons profile, and thus there is now way around the previous quoted rule:

he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

So in your reading of it a Space Wolf Dreadnaught with the shield can't benefit from the 3++ outside of combat?
I never gave it much though before, but no. But I probably wouldn't have anyway, as it says "3+ invuln save against all hits that strike...", and I tend to hold that word to count for close combat only (as also shown in the difference between Precision Shot and Precision Strike).

Edit: I believe the dreadnought has to take his pick between S10/AP2, or S6/AP2/+3 Invuln.

The choice of weapons is irrelevant. The question is if special rules associated with weapons can apply when not using the weapon to attack. IMO weapons are just pieces of wargear that have weapon profiles, there is nothing stopping special rules added to them affecting things outside combat if that is how the rule is worded, just like the mentioned Blizzard Shield and the grenades I mentioned earlier.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 15:08

So.. you didn't really read what I wrote then?
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 15:09

@Sigmaril wrote:
So.. you didn't really read what I wrote then?

Just clarifying. I understand from your reply that you would argue that any special rule associated with a weapon doesn't work outside of combat
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 15:15

I would argue that unless specifically stated otherwise, the rules printed in the "Type" section of the weapon profile is intended for when using that weapon, and not when having it safely sheated up in your backpack.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 15:20

@Sigmaril wrote:
I would argue that unless specifically stated otherwise, the rules printed in the "Type" section of the weapon profile is intended for when using that weapon, and not when having it safely sheated up in your backpack.

Well now we're into arguing rules based on fluff or intention which is way too subjective (and also, the weapons in question for the Solitaire are both one handed). Regardless neither rule is printed under the type section, they are special rules listed below the profile.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 15:28

BRB: p. 41 "Special Rules"
Quote :
The type section of a weapon's profile also includes any special rules that apply to the weapon in question.
Purely subjective, I suppose...

Quote :
Regardless neither rule is printed under the type section, they are special rules listed below the profile.

Quote :
Harlequin's Kiss
Range: -
S: User
AP: -
Type: Melee, Kiss of Death

Edit: What does being one-handed have to do with anything?
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 15:55

@Sigmaril wrote:
BRB: p. 41 "Special Rules"
Quote :
The type section of a weapon's profile also includes any special rules that apply to the weapon in question.
Purely subjective, I suppose...

Quote :
Regardless neither rule is printed under the type section, they are special rules listed below the profile.

Quote :
Harlequin's Kiss
Range: -
S: User
AP: -
Type: Melee, Kiss of Death

Edit: What does being one-handed have to do with anything?

The one handed remark and the subjective were in reply to you mentioning it being stashed in a backpack.

But yeah I typed that up to fast on my way out of work, I was wrong and obviously the rule is in the profile as well.

At this point it doesn't matter though, we are both just repeating the same things without adding any new information. I understand how you (and others') are interpreting the rule and I just don't agree with it being relevant to this. I assume you understand my (and others') interpretation and don't agree with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 16:06

@ronin_cse wrote:

At this point it doesn't matter though, we are both just repeating the same things without adding any new information. I understand how you (and others') are interpreting the rule and I just don't agree with it being relevant to this. I assume you understand my (and others') interpretation and don't agree with it.
Indeed I do Smile
Feel free to play it however you see fit. I will continue playing it by the rules Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 20:29

Not sure if it means anything but Eldrad has the staff of etc. That has a special rule attached allowing him to gain warp charges when he casts a spell. That is definitely not during the assault phase. Prince Yriel has the spear of twilight requiring 're rolls on any 6's.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 20 2015, 11:40

this has certainly been a topic of debate. I for one DO feel that you gain the benefit of both weapons and I think it's quite clear.
The rulebook says you cannot use two different weapons in the assault phase. crystal clear.

The wording for this says "a model equipped with"
The solitaire is equipped with two different weapons.
He attacks normally but because he is equipped with it, he gets the one attack at s6ap2.

My gaming group accepts this, id certainly check beforehand at a tournament how they would rule.

I wish GW checked some of the big forums and would just issue a quick FAQ that said yay or nay but i think its pretty clear.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 20 2015, 15:12

There's a certain amount of precedent as the GK Nemesis Dreadknight had it's Greatsword that allowed re-rolls to hit, wound and armour pen whilst using its power fists. Of course, that might just be because the Matt Ward GK's were special snowflakes to whom the normal game rules did not apply.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 20 2015, 15:33

That's a perfect example!!
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 20 2015, 16:59

I don't see a single conflict in the rules here. The kiss of death stems from a special rule not of a model, but of the weapon. And the rule on page 41 tells you how to resolve this. If you use the caress, you may not gain the benefit of the special rule which grants the kiss of death.

I WISH it were different. Very Happy I run Harlies and would love to unleash this! But the rules just don't support the Caress and the Kiss of Death.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 20 2015, 17:24

Does that mean you play that Eldrads staff does not work or that yriels spear does not affect him outside of him swinging it's? What about the SW dread with shield? It's got a weapon profile- does that mean no save unless it's swinging it?

See how silly this is!

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 20 2015, 18:42

I'll concede that there are examples of things that would work. I just couldn't think of any when I wrote it.
I stand by the SW Dread shield not being one of those, though. It's a 3+ invuln against strikes in close combat. There is no reason that would work if you use the great axe, as per the rule on P. 41.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 20 2015, 18:45

As the shield effect is part of the weapon rules - how can you access it when you use the axe? or did I misunderstand you?

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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 20 2015, 18:49

You did. Imo, you do not get the 3++ unless you use the Blizzard Shield for attacking.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss   Harlequin Solitaire and a Harlequin's Kiss I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 21 2015, 17:16

@Jimsolo wrote:
I don't see a single conflict in the rules here.  The kiss of death stems from a special rule not of a model, but of the weapon.  And the rule on page 41 tells you how to resolve this.  If you use the caress, you may not gain the benefit of the special rule which grants the kiss of death.

I WISH it were different. Very Happy  I run Harlies and would love to unleash this!  But the rules just don't support the Caress and the Kiss of Death.

There is a conflict though.

I must choose between the two, or three weapons if I purchased Haywire Grenades. So I pick the Caress, and will benefit from its special rule. There is nothing on the Kiss requiring I choose it. The Harlequin's Kiss has its own profile and weapon ability, most of the time I would not be able to use either because I didn't choose it.

However, the Harlequins special rule is based on it being equipped, not on it being used. This rule makes one of the model's attacks a Kiss of Death in close combat and is mandatory per the Kiss's rule. For clarity, one of the model's attacks becomes a Kiss of Death, not an attack from the Kiss. This happens regardless of the weapon I chose, and overrides the restriction on mixing and matching weapon because it is an advance rule which trump core rules.

You can't ignore the phasing of a rule because it's different than other similar rules. In fact it's most likely different for a reason.

"When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss (like solitaire is) makes its close combat attacks (when the solitaire makes its close combat attack), one of its (the solitaire's) attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..."

Side note: there is like a 20 page thread about this on Dakka. I think it's kinda hilarious and hope it keeps going because it's like this huge debate about one unique model. Cegorach's Ultimate Jest.
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