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PostSubject: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeMon May 23 2011, 09:31

When designing a “fluffy” army list for a fleet based Kabal (Or any Kabal which is not based in Commorragh for that matter), how would you justify the presence of units from Wych cults and Haemonculi covens?

I’m unsure about how big these “fleets” are, in comparison to say a Craftworld. Are they mini cities in their own right? If so then they could certainly have their own “tag-along” contingent, of Wych and Haemonculi who have joined the fleet and Archon with the promise of plentiful raids.

I suppose the easiest way it just to say “The Wizard Webway did it”, additionally this seems to be quite fitting and easy to represent on the battle field; Simply deploy a Kabalite exclusive force and all other cult/coven units can be brought in directly from the dark city via Webway portals. If Webway portals are not your thing I suppose you could state that they rendezvoused with your fleet in space/orbit before the battle began?

Even thought some Kabals are fleet based for a reason. E.g. being kicked out of Commorragh, I’m sure they still have contacts and a measure of influence within the city (Especially when large payments/bribes in the form of slaves are involved!)

I look forward to hearing other people’s views on this subject, as the official fluff is very vague concerning this subject.
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeMon May 23 2011, 11:49

Ariensis wrote:
When designing a “fluffy” army list for a fleet based Kabal (Or any Kabal which is not based in Commorragh for that matter), how would you justify the presence of units from Wych cults and Haemonculi covens?
According to Midnight on the Street of Knives, a fleet-based Kabal would be classed as runaway. "If there was one thing that all the fickle masters of Commorragh could agree upon, it was that runaways were singled out for especially imaginative punishment in order to set an example." Now, this does seem to support some of the fluff pertaining to Duke Sliscus. He is also an exile, see page 51 of the codex, last paragraph. He is hunted, see The Hunter's Hunted, page 23 of the Codex. And going off of the information provided in Midnight on the Street of Knives, it seems that exiled Duke is still wanted for leaving Commorragh and stealing the three flagships.

Ariensis wrote:
I’m unsure about how big these “fleets” are, in comparison to say a Craftworld. Are they mini cities in their own right? If so then they could certainly have their own “tag-along” contingent, of Wych and Haemonculi who have joined the fleet and Archon with the promise of plentiful raids.
I would not imagine they are even close to the size of a Craftworld. Those are freakin' huge! However, again referencing page 51, the Duke has a large flotilla. You're gonna need it too. Not only are you trying to defend yourself in the galaxy, you've got your own kind hunting you.

As to having Cult and Coven support, I'm sure there are renegades of both. These units would most likely be as ragtag as the rest of the Dark Eldar pirates. Some wyches seeking something more exotic leave the gladiatorial arenas. A Haemonculus either shamed or forced into an exile by pissing off a superior flees and joins a pirate fleet.

Fluff-wise, I find it possible. You would need strong allies to remained armed and supplied. Rendezvous would be necessary for trade between the fleet and your Kabalite allies. It would most likely be dangerous for your allies as well. I don't see it going well for a Kabal that was discovered to aide a runaway group.
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeMon May 23 2011, 20:48

Thanks for your reply Xelkireth; I can always count on you for good input and discussion. Sorry about the belated reply. I was at work and didn't have my Codex or Midnight to hand for reference.

@Xelkireth wrote:
According to Midnight on the Street of Knives, a fleet-based Kabal would be classed as runaway. "If there was one thing that all the fickle masters of Commorragh could agree upon, it was that runaways were singled out for especially imaginative punishment in order to set an example."

I disagree. That quote itself is from a Haemonculi servant and "masters" would allude to his master and the various other Haemonculi regarding punishment of deserting servants.

@Xelkireth wrote:
He is hunted, see The Hunter's Hunted, page 23 of the Codex. And going off of the information provided in Midnight on the Street of Knives, it seems that exiled Duke is still wanted for leaving Commorragh and stealing the three flagships.

Yes, but he's not being hunted by the Kabals "Duke Sliscus is hunted by the Groevian Fiends, an elite reptilian bounty-hunter cadre" DE Codex pg 23 (unless these guys were hired by the Kabals... which is unconfirmed) additionally the Duke was never exiled from Commorragh "the Duke tired of the constant political grind of Commorragh and decided to leave" DE Codex pg 51

@Xelkireth wrote:
the Duke has a large flotilla. You're gonna need it too. Not only are you trying to defend yourself in the galaxy, you've got your own kind hunting you.

Kabals which are space bound would have left of their own accord or have been forced to leave. I know that Kabals come in all shapes and sizes, but most are sufficiently large I'd wager (If they left of their own accord they would be at full strength and if those that had to flee were not strong enough that they would have never got away), without having to recruiting exiles as the Duke did.

Take my chosen Kabal for example: "The Archon S'aronai Ariensis once botched a coup which cost him his place, in the dark city and most of his left hand" Dark Eldar Codex pg 63
This suggests to me that The Severed have a very large fleet because, despite the coup being a failure, it would have had to be large enough to attempt it in the first place.

On a side note, I think space would be a welcome relief and relatively safe environment compared to Commorragh!


I would reason that any good Archon would still have a hand (or half a hand as far as S'aronai is concerned!) in the goings on of Commorragh. It's even mentioned in the Codex that the Duke still maintains close ties with the Wych cults of Commorragh "The Duke is so very popular with the Wych cults" DE Codex PG 51 (Contraband Special Rules)

As we know Archons are out for themselves, and will do anything to obtain power and influence within the city, which is why I believe space bound fleets/Kabals such as the Sky Serpents and The Severed wouldn't be turned against by their race as a whole, quite the opposite in some cases. I can imagine certain Dark Eldar being quite amused by their antics, which would undoubtedly have led to power struggles in the city after their departure. It's Possible that the victors are at least neutral to those who enabled them the opportunity and if not they have enough to worry about; fighting and scheming against each other within the city let alone those outside it.


@Xelkireth wrote:
I don't see it going well for a Kabal that was discovered to aide a runaway group.

Unless the said Kabal is in a powerful position itself, as in the real world; money talks louder than words (In this case slaves, toxins, loot from raids, etc.) and I think these space bound fleets would have plenty of currency, (Being on an almost permanent real-space raid!) affording them much of what they need from Commorragh (Not just weapons and supplies but, allies) and taking whatever else they need from unsuspecting victims. Remember that the Severed have been space bound for Hundreds if not thousands of years. (They can't be doing too badly!) "The Severed are a spacebound Kabal that left the Dark City hundreds of years ago" DE Codex pg 63
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeMon May 23 2011, 21:16

Also, Commorragh is a conglomeration of satalite realms. I would imagine their are many ports and dark corners where members of the Fleet based Kablals could enter, trade with the Covens/Cults and re-supply/recruit when neccessary.
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeMon May 23 2011, 23:19

Ariensis, I'm don't think the quote was just about Haemoculi and their servants. While more Haemonculi probably hunt their runaway slaves, I'd imagine some shammed Archon or Dracon that runs, that doesn't have enough power would be hunted like a rabid dog.

Yes, the Duke being hunted isn't being hunted my Dark Eldar, but it is entertaining to ponder who put them on his trail. I personally loved the fact he went Groevian Fiends homeworld to lay some smackdown.

I wasn't saying Kabal's couldn't have fleets. They obviously do. I agree with the fact the larger and more powerful the Kabal, the larger the fleet. On this note, the Sky Serpents are not a Kabal. They are pirate fleet.
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeTue May 24 2011, 00:39

I'm going to use Battle Fleet Gothic as a reference for the size. An apocalypse BFG game between two fleets tend to be about 2000 points.

There would be the Dread Archon, and the buyable LD re-rolls, bringing him to 200.
The Torture Class Cruisers on average cost 255 each.
Every Cruiser requires 3 Corsair Class Escorts minimum, each about 60 points.

Therefore an average fleet would have about 12-13 Escorts and 4-5 Cruisers.

I hope this somehow vaguely helps.
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeTue May 24 2011, 09:32

@Xelkireth wrote:
Ariensis, I'm don't think the quote was just about Haemoculi and their servants. While more Haemonculi probably hunt their runaway slaves, I'd imagine some shammed Archon or Dracon that runs, that doesn't have enough power would be hunted like a rabid dog.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point, as to me Commorragh is like a huge game. As I mentioned in my last post if you aggravate one person then it’s sure to make another one happy, thus I can’t see Archon’s agreeing on anything at all especially not to hunt a rouge Archon/Kabal. (They maybe hunted by the one person that they aggravated, but it would be a large investment distracting them from the eternal struggle of the Dark City…)

Its great to discus this regardless, I really enjoy it! (Nice to have different views on the city and background instead of saying “this is right and everything else is wrong”) I often end up answering my own questions whilst writing a reply. (I think we could have some real deep conversations over some of that Rum you harp on about so often!)

@Xelkireth wrote:
the Sky Serpents are not a Kabal. They are pirate fleet.
Granted, although it’s easy to compare them as there are similarities. Thanks for your input Rangrok1k; it certainly helps it getting a better feel for the size of a Kabalite fleet.

Archon: I’m sure that there are lots of places, all over if you wanted to do anything really and I’m glad that some things are left vague for us to speculate. Thinking about it you could make anything fluffy, due to this vagueness. As Xelkireth mentioned, it’s certainly entertaining wondering who sent bounty hunters after the Duke.



Last edited by Ariensis on Tue May 24 2011, 11:29; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeTue May 24 2011, 11:16

My stance on hunting rogues is based on the rather stark similarities to Drow. Dark Elves do not tolerate runaways fleeing their society (Dark Elf Trilogy).
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeTue May 24 2011, 12:30

Personally, I can't see every Archon hunting down a run-away one. There are bound to be some that don't care, and some would provide help, for the combined reasons of spiting your rival who placed the bounty, and now you're owed a rather large favour. Simply hunting down the Archon won't bring nearly as many rewards as aiding them, in some cases. The politics of Commorragh are too labyrinthine to be rendered down to a "in situation X, all Y's will do Z."
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeTue May 24 2011, 13:14

@Aroshamash wrote:
Personally, I can't see every Archon hunting down a run-away one. There are bound to be some that don't care, and some would provide help, for the combined reasons of spiting your rival who placed the bounty, and now you're owed a rather large favour. Simply hunting down the Archon won't bring nearly as many rewards as aiding them, in some cases. The politics of Commorragh are too labyrinthine to be rendered down to a "in situation X, all Y's will do Z."
In some cases, yes, but for a lowly warrior who just runs, I think he's toast.
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeTue May 24 2011, 20:35

@Xelkireth wrote:
@Aroshamash wrote:
Personally, I can't see every Archon hunting down a run-away one. There are bound to be some that don't care, and some would provide help, for the combined reasons of spiting your rival who placed the bounty, and now you're owed a rather large favour. Simply hunting down the Archon won't bring nearly as many rewards as aiding them, in some cases. The politics of Commorragh are too labyrinthine to be rendered down to a "in situation X, all Y's will do Z."
In some cases, yes, but for a lowly warrior who just runs, I think he's toast.

Aroshamsh: This echoes my thoughts exactly, which I had been trying to put forward in the last few posts. Thanks for going adding more details as to the possible motives of Archons who wouldn't turn against "Run-away" Archon/Kabals, etc.

Xelkireth: We are not talking about Warriors... I'm certain that a warrior would be, but we were discussing the measure of influence and power an Archon of a fleet based Kabal would have within the Dark City with regard to recruiting allies and resupplying, (Thus justifying certain units presence in their army list) as well as how the Dark City's factions would feel regarding these actions and Space bound Kabals in general.
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeTue May 24 2011, 21:15

Interesting discussion guys. Also keep in mind that a fleet based kabal will surely need to be raiding much more frequently than those who dwell in the Webway. They do not benefit from its partial protection against Slaanesh. This could put them in more tenuous situations quite often, where they are going mad, starving for souls, and pouncing foolhardily but ferociously on any unlucky fools who happen to be nearby.

...that is, unless they are constantly importing a large number of slaves from their allies in the Webway. That would be quite the drain on a Commoraghan kabal's resources though.

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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeTue May 24 2011, 23:16

Ariensis wrote:
Xelkireth: We are not talking about Warriors... I'm certain that a warrior would be, but we were discussing the measure of influence and power an Archon of a fleet based Kabal would have within the Dark City with regard to recruiting allies and resupplying, (Thus justifying certain units presence in their army list) as well as how the Dark City's factions would feel regarding these actions and Space bound Kabals in general.
Yes, but what circumstances would have happened to push the Archon out of the Dark City? I'm sure there are many fleet-based Kabals.

@Krovin-Rezh wrote:
Interesting discussion guys. Also keep in mind that a fleet based kabal will surely need to be raiding much more frequently than those who dwell in the Webway. They do not benefit from its partial protection against Slaanesh. This could put them in more tenuous situations quite often, where they are going mad, starving for souls, and pouncing foolhardily but ferociously on any unlucky fools who happen to be nearby.

...that is, unless they are constantly importing a large number of slaves from their allies in the Webway. That would be quite the drain on a Commoraghan kabal's resources though.
That is an excellent thought.

Anyways, I got more to say, but there's a tornado coming.
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeWed May 25 2011, 00:05

@Xelkireth wrote:

Anyways, I got more to say, but there's a tornado coming.

Wait, in real life?! Did it pass near you?

Anyway on the subject of fleet based kabal, they would kind of ceas to be a kabal and become adored when they left the dark city, the duke isn't listed on the list of archons after all.
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeWed May 25 2011, 01:39

@Todo13 wrote:
@Xelkireth wrote:

Anyways, I got more to say, but there's a tornado coming.

Wait, in real life?! Did it pass near you?
Lol. Yeah. In real life. We got lucky. There were damaging rotations to the east and west of us. Two tornadoes just south of us (about 20 minutes south) and it looks like three to four (about 15 minutes north) just north of us. We just got the second all clear.

@Todo13 wrote:
Anyway on the subject of fleet based kabal, they would kind of ceas to be a kabal and become adored when they left the dark city, the duke isn't listed on the list of archons after all.
Now where was I...

I honestly get the feeling that most fleet-based "Kabals" are pirate/corsair fleets similar to that of Duke Sliscus' Sky Serpents. I base this on the fact that all the listed Archons and all the fluff on the Kabals out of Commorragh are all centered out of the Dark City. The one bit one fleet-based Kabals is the Sky Serpernt and the Duke. Duke Sliscus' "Kabal" is fleet based and pirate-oriented. Yes, he is adored by the "public" of Comorragh, but as we well know, public opinion is generally the opinion of the idiots not truly informed about what's actually going on. How many powerful Archon's hate the Duke? How many secretly wish that they two could escape the political-murder circle of Commorragh's politicking? How many more revel in it?
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeWed May 25 2011, 10:31

Xelkireth: First of all, I’m glad that you’re OK regarding the Tornado’s! That must be a scary thing, (I feel lucky that I’m the UK!)

@Xelkireth wrote:
Yes, but what circumstances would have happened to push the Archon out of the Dark City? I'm sure there are many fleet-based Kabals.
I’m sure the reasons for them leaving are numerous. A few reasons were listed in my previous posts. The Duke left out of boredom (committing grand theft auto on his way out!) and Ariensis due to a failed coup etc. I don’t see how the reasons for leaving are relevant though.


@Todo13 wrote:
Anyway on the subject of fleet based kabal, they would kind of ceas to be a kabal and become adored when they left the dark city, the duke isn't listed on the list of archons after all.
@Xelkireth wrote:
I honestly get the feeling that most fleet-based "Kabals" are pirate/corsair fleets similar to that of Duke Sliscus' Sky Serpents. I base this on the fact that all the listed Archons and all the fluff on the Kabals out of Commorragh are all centered out of the Dark City.
Ok guys I can go with this idea. "The Severed" are still listed as a Kabal in the Codex, but i suppose its likely and feasible that they have become more of a pirate/corsair fleet themselves over the course of hundreds of years. In fact this makes it easier to justify Coven/Cult units in their army list as it brings their description closer to that of the Sky Serpents who we know have links with the Dark City and Wych cults.

@Xelkireth wrote:
Yes, he is adored by the "public" of Comorragh, but as we well know, public opinion is generally the opinion of the idiots not truly informed about what's actually going on. How many powerful Archon's hate the Duke? How many secretly wish that they two could escape the political-murder circle of Commorragh's politicking? How many more revel in it?
I agree whole heartedly with this statement, but being adored or hated is irrelevant if you have power and influence.


Krovin-Rezh: Thanks for your input and a fresh view on this subject. Space bound “Kabals, Pirate/Corsair Fleets” (or whatever we are going to call them) are described as just that “Space bound”. This to me makes no definition between different types of space e.g. Warp, Real-time (Normal) and Webway. Undoubtedly they spend much more time in Real space but I can also imagine them having a “resting spot” if you will in an entrance/exit to the Webway. (Much like a funnel web spider lies in wait for passing prey…)

@Krovin-Rezh wrote:
Also keep in mind that a fleet based Kabal will surely need to be raiding much more frequently

I didn’t consider that they would require more souls than those in Commorragh to keep them healthy, thus requiring them to raid more often, so thanks for point out my oversight there. As a result of this more frequent raiding there would quite possibly be plenty to send back to Commorragh (As opposed to the other way round) in exchange as I mentioned earlier.

Ariensis wrote:
I think these space bound fleets would have plenty of currency, (Being on an almost permanent real-space raid!) affording them much of what they need from Commorragh (Not just weapons and supplies but, allies)


My post's keep getting longer... Must shorten them in the future...
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeWed May 25 2011, 16:38

Ariensis wrote:
Xelkireth: First of all, I’m glad that you’re OK regarding the Tornado’s! That must be a scary thing, (I feel lucky that I’m the UK!)
I've been in tornadoes and earthquakes, and I'd rather be in an earthquake, if I had to pick a natural disaster. There's no anticipation with an earthquake.

Ariensis wrote:
@Xelkireth wrote:
Yes, but what circumstances would have happened to push the Archon out of the Dark City? I'm sure there are many fleet-based Kabals.
I’m sure the reasons for them leaving are numerous. A few reasons were listed in my previous posts. The Duke left out of boredom (committing grand theft auto on his way out!) and Ariensis due to a failed coup etc. I don’t see how the reasons for leaving are relevant though.
It should matter! It is what drives the story/interest/etc.

Ariensis wrote:
@Todo13 wrote:
Anyway on the subject of fleet based kabal, they would kind of ceas to be a kabal and become adored when they left the dark city, the duke isn't listed on the list of archons after all.
@Xelkireth wrote:
I honestly get the feeling that most fleet-based "Kabals" are pirate/corsair fleets similar to that of Duke Sliscus' Sky Serpents. I base this on the fact that all the listed Archons and all the fluff on the Kabals out of Commorragh are all centered out of the Dark City.
Ok guys I can go with this idea. "The Severed" are still listed as a Kabal in the Codex, but i suppose its likely and feasible that they have become more of a pirate/corsair fleet themselves over the course of hundreds of years. In fact this makes it easier to justify Coven/Cult units in their army list as it brings their description closer to that of the Sky Serpents who we know have links with the Dark City and Wych cults.
Interesting enough, this thread and another user has sparked this thread.

Ariensis wrote:
My post's keep getting longer... Must shorten them in the future...
Never! Fight the urge!
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeWed May 25 2011, 19:47

[quote="Ariensis"]
@Xelkireth wrote:
As Xelkireth mentioned, it’s certainly entertaining wondering who sent bounty hunters after the Duke.


If I remember correctly, the Duke stole three Void Stalker battleships from three seperate Archons while he made good his escape from Commorragh. I always assumed it was those three Archons who where hunting him. But, every Archon has his enemys, and the enemys of those Archons were quietly supporting the Duke for any dealings he has in Commorragh itself.

That comment was very confusing, did it make sense?
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeThu May 26 2011, 09:06

@Xelkireth wrote:
It should matter! It is what drives the story/interest/etc.
Oh of course I agree, but they have nothing to do with this topic as were talking about Fleet-based Kabals, Corsair/Pirate fleets in general and their influence and power within the city. (Although I admit if we were looking a specific one, then their background could influence their influence in the city depending on the reasons that they left…)

So to sum it up, even though some Kabals are listed as being Spacebound, we can treat them and their army list as being similar to pirate/corsair fleets? Which justify a variety of units which comprise their army lists? (I suppose you could interpret the fluff to allow anything, much in the same way the bible is interpreted in many ways...)


Archon: You're correct he did steal three flagships upon departure, but I guess we will never know who hired the bounty hunters. It could be the Archons seeking revenge for their loss or a disgruntled populace which had recently been harvested...


@Xelkireth wrote:
Never! Fight the urge!
I wont I promise Razz just have so many thoughts that I need to write them down even, if the post becomes a page long!


P.S Loving your new avatar Xelkireth!

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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeThu May 26 2011, 17:28

Ariensis wrote:
So to sum it up, even though some Kabals are listed as being Spacebound, we can treat them and their army list as being similar to pirate/corsair fleets? Which justify a variety of units which comprise their army lists? (I suppose you could interpret the fluff to allow anything, much in the same way the bible is interpreted in many ways...)
I think so. Even if you're playing a Kabal heavy list, fluff-wise, you could still have Cult or Coven allies, fleet-based or not. Who's gonna turn down the chance to feast on a realspace raid? That's like turning down a free steak dinner.

Ariensis wrote:
P.S Loving your new avatar Xelkireth!
LuckNo.5 made it for me. I'm loving it too.
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PostSubject: Re: Fleet-Based Kabals   Fleet-Based Kabals I_icon_minitimeMon May 30 2011, 22:38

While not a fleet based Kabal, the kabal in Mistress Baeda's Gift (Fear the Alien anthology) is said to have "numerous wych hirelings and reaver gangs" It makes sense that a Fleet based kabal would have hired a fair share of non-Kabalite troops.
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THE DARK CITY :: 

OTHER DRUKHARI DISCUSSION

 :: Background
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