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 Cover saves for shooting through units

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Kinnay
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Kinnay

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PostSubject: Cover saves for shooting through units   Cover saves for shooting through units I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 14:14

Yay, another rules question!

This time I'd like to know how the cover saves that you get/give when shooting through units work. Sure, basically when unit A shoots at unit B while unit C is in the way, unit B gets a 4+ cover save. But what if unit C is not really in the way?

I mean, we're talking TLOS here. What if unit A is, say, a Venom, shooting through a random infantry unit at a random infantry target. Does the target (unit B) get a cover save? Technically the upper Splinter Cannon is higher than unit C and doesn't have to draw LOS through it. It's as if nothing was in the way. The lower Splinter Cannon, however, would shoot right through the infantry. So does it grant a cover save, but the upper one doesn't?
That's for vehicles, maybe they have their own rules, but how about, say, Reaver Jetbikes? On the high flying stand they shoot right over any infantry, on the low one their guns are at about head level. Let's assume unit A are the Reavers, unit B is a tank and unit C is some infantry. Does the tank get cover saves against the Reavers' shooting?

Basically I don't know where to draw the line between TLOS and abstract ruling.

Help?

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Lightcavalier
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PostSubject: Re: Cover saves for shooting through units   Cover saves for shooting through units I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 20:43

True Line of Sight.

There is no abstraction to it...if from the guns eye view the unit has cover then they have cover
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Cover saves for shooting through units   Cover saves for shooting through units I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 21:38

Well, you're asking a few questions here.

1. TLOS matters - for vehicles you check from the barrel of the weapon in question.

2. For cover each vehicle weapon counts as a model in the "unit" that is shooting. SPecifically in your Venom example - 1 weapon can see everyone, the other can see everyone but they are in cover - therefore 50%+ of the target is in cover from 50% plus of the firing unit and therefore they would receive cover. (as outlined in the rules for shooting and cover in the BRB)

3. You get *really* confusing with the Reavers question, so let's break this down;

a. Reavers vs. infantry with infantry in the way - check TLOS from the "head" of the Reavers (with infantry you always check head eyelines) if they can clearly see over the intervening infantry (and that means can see, uninterrupted, the legs, torso, arms, and head) then there will be no cover save. Even if the enemy models just have just thrown their arms in the air like they just don't care, and are blocking the feet of the unit you want to shoot, then that unit will get a cover save.

b. Versus vehicles - basically the same deal for checking TLOS - however, for a vehicle to get a cover save it needs to have over 50% of it obscured (so if you can still see 65% of the vehicle then it will not get a cover save.

Does that cover everything and make sense?

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Cover saves for shooting through units   Cover saves for shooting through units I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 23:07

All in all +1 for Thor.

Just to clarify some things.

1. If a weapon can't be moved, because it is glued in place (Venom for example), just use an angle, that looks possible for that weapon.

2. Multiple models/weapons firing at units partially in cover is always a pain in the butt, but the rules say, that if one model/weapon has as much or more than 50% of it's targets in cover the target unit counts as completely being in cover, and if as much or more than 50% of your shooting models would shoot at a unit in cover, all shoot as if the unit is in cover.
Alternatively you might just agree to using a one point higher cover save, if your opponent aproves.

3.There is one additional problem with intervening units. If the unit, being shot, is not actually covered, but in between of two intervening models it still counts as in cover. So for example if you have a single model (for example an IC or one model unit) standing in between two other models, it still gets a cover save, even if it is not covered at all.

Oh, and keep in mind, that models of the own unit can't give cover to each other, both your own, and the enemies', so if your opponent would line up all his models behind each other, they would still get no cover save.

P.S.: Just look at the pictures on page 22 and 23 in the BRB, they explain a lot.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Cover saves for shooting through units   Cover saves for shooting through units I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08 2011, 00:06

Page 16 with drawing TLOS is also good - it also talks about what counts as targetable on a model.

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Kinnay
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PostSubject: Re: Cover saves for shooting through units   Cover saves for shooting through units I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08 2011, 01:42

Nice, thanks a lot, guys. Especially to Thor and Tiri. Nice explaining as always! Smile

I was asking this as I don't have my BRB here in Japan, and yesterday someone tried to claim a coversave for his unit when my Reavers shot over his Snotlings at a tank... Granted, it was on Vassal, but... right?

Also now I know that I'll put my Reavers on the high flying stands. They don't get cover from units anyway and this way they at least give cover to my tanks and are able to shoot over infantry at enemy tanks.

Again, thank you!

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