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 List fighting orcs 1500

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Vasara
CptMetal
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CptMetal
Dracon
CptMetal

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PostSubject: List fighting orcs 1500   List fighting orcs 1500 I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 03 2015, 15:05

I've had a bad have against orcs with two big lootaz squads in cover and mechanised boys and a jet. After some advice I incorporated grotesques and Medusa to force him to go to ground and charge him
Maybe swap haywire for heat lances in one squad scourges.

+++ Anti Orks 1,5 (1500pts) +++

++ Dark Eldar: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1500pts) ++

+ No Force Org Slot (50pts) +

Court of the Archon (50pts)
····2x Medusae

+ HQ +

Archon (175pts) with Blaster and WWP
····Venom with Flickerfield and 2 Splinter Cannons

Archon (135pts) with Agoniser, Shadow Field and Soul-Trap

+ Elites (310pts) +

Grotesques Unit (215pts) with four Grotesques and Raider with enhanced Aethersails and Nightshield


Trueborn (95pts) Unit with 5 Trueborn and 2 Dark Lances

+ Troops (310pts) +

Kabalite Warriors Unit (120pts) with 5 Kabalite, Blaster and Venom with Splinter Cannon

Kabalite Warriors Unit (190pts) with 10 Kabalite and Shredder and Splinter Cannon and Raider with Dark anc, Night Shield and Splinter Racks

+ Fast Attack (380pts) +

Razorwing Jetfighter (140pts) with Dark Lances

Scourges Unit (120pts) with 5 Scourges and 4 Haywire Blaster

Scourges Unit (120pts) with 5 Scourges and 4 Heatlances

+ Heavy Support (140pts) +

Ravager (140pts) with Dark Lances and Nightshield


Last edited by CptMetal on Wed Mar 04 2015, 10:40; edited 2 times in total
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Vasara
Incognito assault marine
Vasara

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PostSubject: Re: List fighting orcs 1500   List fighting orcs 1500 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 04 2015, 10:12

Please read THIS before posting army lists from battle scribe or similar programs. That format is way too long to read or comment.

You can use the edit button in the upper right corner of the post to correct the opening post. If you are using mobile change theme to classic so that the edit function shows.

///Vasara

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Khordajj
Hellion
Khordajj

Posts : 68
Join date : 2014-11-01

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PostSubject: Re: List fighting orcs 1500   List fighting orcs 1500 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 05 2015, 22:14

It's very difficult to recommend what loadouts to take when you don't know what the exact list your building against is. Also you didn't mention how you intend to use your units.

In general: Avoid HQ tax, avoid taking units without pairs, pursue cost-efficiency and synergy.

Avoid HQ tax: Most HQs are not cost-efficient. You're better served by buying a dedicated unit for your HQ's intended role. You have a WWP Archon and a melee Archon; it's not exactly clear what you intend to do with either, but I'd recommend finding a way to cut one out.

Avoid taking units without pairs: Dark Eldar aren't durable. If one of your units poses any sort of threat to your opponent, then take more than one. While I like mixing units that share the same role in lieu of taking the same unit multiple times, you have Heat Lances on your Scourge -- which suggests you're going to deep strike them. Your raider is going to be the only threat on the table turn 1. That's no bueno. Either take Blasters or Haywire Blasters, or swap a Scourge unit out for another Ravager.

Pursue Cost-Efficiency: Shredders are bad. They only work in a few niche instances. Don't take them. Night Shields are arguably as bad unless you have excess points and you feel like you REALLY need them. Raider gunboats aren't very cost-efficient unless you're very close to the enemy -- consider if the rest of your list is going to be that close so that your opponent has multiple threats to consider. If not, take smaller venom units instead. Enhanced aethersails are a bit redundant. Dark Eldar are already very fast, and the aethersails are useless the turn you want to assault. Good counter/deployment will make up for not having them (I imagine you're playing on nothing larger than 6x4). Dark Lances on Trueborn are okay, but JUST okay. They're better with Blasters in general.

Synergy: Your list may work out perfectly for you, but just from looking at the list, I can't tell what you're deep striking/ reserving/ deploying. If you're going to take Medusae (baller unit), then deepstrike them with a Webway Portal and delete an infantry unit. If this is the strategy you were intending on doing with the WWP Archon, then drop the Blaster. I promise that unit will get vaporized the next turn, and you can only shoot at the same unit the Medusae shoot at, so you're wasting 15 points. Against Orcs, maybe you'd have better luck with a Huskblade instead of an Agoniser -- I'm not really positive on that.


Anyway I've said enough, maybe I've helped you or maybe I haven't. If big loota squads are really causing you problems, you could try the Medusae drop or two.
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CptMetal
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: List fighting orcs 1500   List fighting orcs 1500 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 06 2015, 07:59

Problem is, that I used venoms in our first game and he killed them very easily. If i jink, they aren´t able to do any more damage the next turn. Whereas Raiders can jink (3+) have more hullpoints and can still operate.
The Archon with the blaster is for the Medusae (I want to drop them) and the other ones to accompany the Grotesques.
About the Scourges: I have two squads but due to the damn rare Haywire Blasters, I can only built them with heat lances (plunder from Talos stuff I got from a friend to built the Grotesques). But I think there would be no problem using them as count as haywire blasters. Or do you recommand blasters to also be able to kill MC and terminator MEQ?

This army list is linked to an article about ideas to fight orcs in the tactic departement.
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Korwey
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PostSubject: Re: List fighting orcs 1500   List fighting orcs 1500 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 06 2015, 12:14

From my experience against Greenskins I'd recommend:
Ravagers to blow up his transports turn 1
Desintegrator/SCannon Razorwings to murder his boyz/biker blobs.
Venoms for long range mass poison shooting against anything that is fast or has you in range.

Melee is their game so IMO outshooting is better solution.

About haywire: I made my other three HWB from Heat Lance with some spikes (from warriors box) and splinter cannon with Shredder's barrel attached.
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Khordajj
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Khordajj

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PostSubject: Re: List fighting orcs 1500   List fighting orcs 1500 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 06 2015, 16:06

@CptMetal wrote:
Problem is, that I used venoms in our first game and he killed them very easily. If i jink, they aren´t able to do any more damage the next turn.
Yup. Working as intended. Don't Jink with Venoms unless you need them to contest objectives or something. Utilize their Flickerfields unless there's better cover around (4+).

@CptMetal wrote:
Whereas Raiders can jink (3+) have more hullpoints and can still operate.
There are intricate nuances between taking Venoms and Raiders, too many to discuss here, but you can probably find something on the tactics forum. The gist is that you can take 3 Venoms or 2 Raiders. Venoms have a longer range, are more durable against Ignores Cover (Flickerfields); Raiders have a built-in Lance, shorter range, but theoretically more firepower. Both allow you to abuse the movement phase in creative ways.

This I promise you: if you take Raiders for more firepower, you have to be closer to your opponent, and then the difference in durability between the Raider and Venom won't matter. Either transport will die. If you take Venoms, you have a longer range to fire from, and are theoretically further from harm's way.

Use your best judgement. Do you think the list you're going against, in conjunction with the list you're taking, is going to permit your Raider to be so close?


@CptMetal wrote:
The Archon with the blaster is for the Medusae (I want to drop them)
Like I said, the Archon will have to shoot at the same unit as the Medusae. 1 Blaster shot isn't going to be very cost-effective since flamers and lance's have different target priorities. I know it's a small nuance, but every point matters. Drop the Blaster, because that squad isn't going to live to shoot another turn.

@CptMetal wrote:
And the other ones to accompany the Grotesques.
This is going to be a matter of preference: I would recommend a Glaive Succubus over the Archon. Archon's can't have AP2 melee weapons, and Grotesques will really take care of most things Sv3+ and up. If you're concerned about challenges or something, then I could see why you'd take an Archon, otherwise I'd stick with the Succubus.

@CptMetal wrote:
About the Scourges: I have two squads but due to the damn rare Haywire Blasters, I can only built them with heat lances (plunder from Talos stuff I got from a friend to built the Grotesques). But I think there would be no problem using them as count as haywire blasters. Or do you recommand blasters to also be able to kill MC and terminator MEQ?
It depends on your opponent's list. That being said, for anti-MC/MEQ/TEQ, Scourges are an auxiliary means of solving that problem. I think there are better solutions, and I'd only take them if I couldn't take anything else. Scourge in my opinion are strictly anti-vehicle, and you should only take Blasters over Haywire Blasters if there's a strong layover of multi-wound T4, Sv2+, and vehicles.


Also, really important question: You don't intend on deepstriking the Medusae and Archon WITH the Venom, right? Because it would be better to cut the Venom from the list altogether than to WWP the unit inside the Venom. Make sure you deepstrike the Medusae outside of the transport and let the Venom start elsewhere on the board.
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CptMetal
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: List fighting orcs 1500   List fighting orcs 1500 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 06 2015, 21:33

Why not with the transport? They can shoot normally despite jinking. Would allow me to fight another target, too.
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Khordajj
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Khordajj

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PostSubject: Re: List fighting orcs 1500   List fighting orcs 1500 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 07 2015, 00:05

@CptMetal wrote:
Why not with the transport? They can shoot normally despite jinking. Would allow me to fight another target, too.

The Venom is guarenteed to be shot down if the Medusae are inside it. Even if the Medusae are inside the transport, the Medusae are going to die. Deploying the Venom separate from the Medusae gives it a chance to survive.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: List fighting orcs 1500   List fighting orcs 1500 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 07 2015, 08:12

@Khordajj wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
Why not with the transport? They can shoot normally despite jinking. Would allow me to fight another target, too.

The Venom is guarenteed to be shot down if the Medusae are inside it. Even if the Medusae are inside the transport, the Medusae are going to die. Deploying the Venom separate from the Medusae gives it a chance to survive.

However, when deepstriking without a transport you will at most be able to fire 3 templates. This is because deepstrike packs the models so tight and templates may not be placed so that they touch friendly models including the ones from your own unit. One of the reasons I never bother with liquifiers on grotesques.

40k rule book wrote:
...place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model and the rest of the template covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly models (including other models from the firing model’s unit).

On the other hand when firing from a transport you can fire as many as you want (as they are all measured from any point on the hull). So it worth taking that into consideration.

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: List fighting orcs 1500   List fighting orcs 1500 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 07 2015, 08:16

Deepstriking in the transport can help limit the amount of incoming fire on the unit too. I'd much rather take D6 strength 4 hits from the transport they're in being blown up by a barrage weapon or something than hope they survive the shell hitting them directly.

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Khordajj
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Khordajj

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PostSubject: Re: List fighting orcs 1500   List fighting orcs 1500 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 07 2015, 21:10

@Mr Believer wrote:
Deepstriking in the transport can help limit the amount of incoming fire on the unit too. I'd much rather take D6 strength 4 hits from the transport they're in being blown up by a barrage weapon or something than hope they survive the shell hitting them directly.

It's not really the quality of firepower hitting the Venom that protects the unit inside, it's the quantity. Nearly all non-coven units in the codex disregard the strength or AP of enemy weapons, because they all deal significant damage to the unit. Being so close to the enemy only means that there's more shots likely to come its way, and while a Venom 30-40" away might protect the unit inside from a Blast, there's nothing that's going to save the unit inside from even measly small arms fire when it's 1-10" away from his entire army.

@Mushkilla wrote:

On the other hand when firing from a transport you can fire as many as you want (as they are all measured from any point on the hull). So it worth taking that into consideration.

This is a really good point, and you should decide what size unit you're trying to destroy. Orcs are T4? Meaning you should aim to inflict around twice as many hits on your templates as there are models in the unit. If you don't think that's possible to do with three templates (which I think is as many models as you could efficiently encircle the Archon with), then you should definitely deep strike them with the transport.
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